mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 533
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Post by mosker on Jul 1, 2023 15:17:39 GMT -5
This is from Mission For A Cat Goddess (and sscrompton, if there's any background story, would love to hear it.) I'm intrigued. Who's tried this? Thoughts on the rules themselves, their portability to other adventures? Thoughts from creators on keeping something like this in the back of their mind as you create? (What's the accessibility vs depth trade off?) Yes, it depends on the adventure, but what about Saving Rolls--maybe an extra paragraph or two is all that's needed... Players? Your thoughts on the casual read with the occasional die roll or coin toss? * ( Vin Ahrr Vin / ProfGremlin : there were about five forums I thought of slotting this into, but decided to go with this one as the ultimate compromise/cop-out...) ** Yes, this is Trollbridge: I understand how messages may differ compared to a FB or other social media forum with an even greater population, but wanted to start here.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Jul 1, 2023 22:16:42 GMT -5
Wow...that is really rules-lite. Almost a bit too much IMHO, but for a Solo Adventure Book? Not terrible-but not really T&T.
It sort of reminds me of those Dragonlance 'D&D' Solo books with only 3 Stats and a HP total. Worked a treat-but not Dungeons & Dragons by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 1, 2023 23:15:19 GMT -5
Wow...that is really rules-lite. Almost a bit too much IMHO, but for a Solo Adventure Book? Not terrible-but not really T&T. I concur to that point. Workable, but not T&T in feel nor style.
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Post by ProfGremlin on Jul 1, 2023 23:26:46 GMT -5
Players? Your thoughts on the casual read with the occasional die roll or coin toss? What caught my attention out of all of this is the statement in the text that there's a set of M!M! quick-start rules included in the back of the module. I hadn't realized M!M! had a set of QS rules. I'd love to get my hands on them. I can't recall a single instances where anyone has gotten their nose bent out of shape because a thread was placed in this sub-forum instead of that one. What's more important is kind, respectful, thoughtful discourse. As long as we have that, it'll all work out. For everything else, well, there's a search function
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Post by houndle on Jul 1, 2023 23:35:53 GMT -5
For me it removed rather too much player agency at each stage. When I tried the rules it felt as if everything depended on the roll of a couple of dice. (OK I know a cynic might claim that is the very definition of a solo, but complexity leads to an illusion of choice which in turn generates enjoyment.)
It might work for me with a few rules tweaks without significantly adding to the word count. For example by adding some more special abilities such as: Lucky You can re roll your combat die once per combat. Favour of the Goddess You can ignore one result which would otherwise kill you. This may be a combat outcome (you win instead if losing) or a trap etc. It works only once per game and is not effective against automatic kills. Strong You win drawn combat rolls (?already implicit in the rules?)
...and so on. Some might have to be keyed to the specific adventure. And you would have to resist the temptation to add too many extras and making the rules not-so-easy play.
Can't immediately see that the rules cover saving rolls. To keep things simple I'd say roll a die, 4 or more required. Or flip a coin, 50/50 chance.
P.S. as far as I can tell the QS rules for M!M! are not very different to the full rules. Weapon choice and spells more limited, a bit of "chrome" omitted but the basic concepts very similar.
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 417
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Post by sscrompton on Jul 2, 2023 1:05:49 GMT -5
Hello all - YES, I am happy to explain the "Play the Easy Way Rules" These rules are not meant to be M!M! rules really at all, but a way for someone who has NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL with rpgs or solos. This will allow them to read through the solo and at least get a feel for how a solo works and how to emulate combat. Its not really meant for any of you that know how to play T&T or M!M!.
You may be surprised to hear this, but the vast majority of the world does not know how rpg playing works, how to role up a character or do combat etc. Over the many many years I worked at Flying Buffalo I heard the story 100 times that people found a solo, didn't have the rules and just sort of read through it and flipped a coin or just decided how things went as they read the paragraphs. A lot of people don't want to commit to learning a more complicated rpg if they are just casually interested in a solo that catches their eye - so these one page rules are meant for those people. The goal (the challenge) was "Can we give people a basic way to role-play with just one page of rules?" So that's what this is - a way to introduce total neophytes to role-playing.
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Post by houndle on Jul 2, 2023 5:07:44 GMT -5
I agree with the aim, though I suspect that anyone totally new to the RPG experience would quickly find a wealth of information on the Internet. Actually, too much in all likelihood. There is maybe scope for a tiny website that explains things very simply, is system agnostic, and links to other information/systems rather than trying to be too ambitious. Sort-of electronic equivalent to Ian Livingstone's 1982 volume Dicing with Dragons (though the sample rules and adventure in there are still a bit too complicated. Plus I have never beaten the solo). I saw the Easy-play rules as a good step towards this aim, but maybe need to be supplemented by further background, examples and a play through if it is aimed at people who know nothing about role-playing. Preferably available free rather than being linked to a paid-for solo, in view of the aim of attracting new players. (Perhaps reproduce the rules in each solo with a brief note (if necessary!) of any adaptations required.)
I really like the idea; however, maybe I'm biased but I think M!M! is already simple enough for the average neophyte! (Still remember the argument in some quarters that T&T is just an introduction to "real" RPGs like TOG... hopefully that is no longer a thing.)
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 533
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Post by mosker on Jul 2, 2023 8:54:29 GMT -5
Over the many many years I worked at Flying Buffalo I heard the story 100 times that people found a solo, didn't have the rules and just sort of read through it and flipped a coin or just decided how things went as they read the paragraphs. A lot of people don't want to commit to learning a more complicated rpg if they are just casually interested in a solo that catches their eye - so these one page rules are meant for those people. The goal (the challenge) was "Can we give people a basic way to role-play with just one page of rules?" So that's what this is - a way to introduce total neophytes to role-playing. What this does drive home is the value of the extra steps in making things easier (if not less deadly) for the players to dive in to the adventure and focus on the narrative. Things like pre-gen characters, rules options, and other aids to help even crunch-loving folk to optimize their play experience* . Especially now when it's safer to assume players have options to printers, copiers etc. than in 19__. I can see this especially useful if we're going to really take advantage of M!M!'s playable kin. One simple decision at the beginning for scaled down rules: rather than Fighter/Wizard/Rogue "Are you the minotaur/chimera/gorgon?" (There was talk of Labyrinth on another thread a while back...) and periodically have that one decision come up in the paragraphs, much like the Choose your special bonus here. *(yes, I am the audience for this post: off to add to assets and tools page for a solo on darrght 's virtual desk)
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Post by houndle on Jul 2, 2023 9:19:59 GMT -5
What this does drive home is the value of the extra steps in making things easier (if not less deadly) for the players to dive in to the adventure and focus on the narrative. That I think is the crucial thing for me. Little challenge to ponder Dave; could the rules be reduced still further? Like, to zero pages? Not a wholly frivolous question; could the mechanics be baked-in to the solo itself in such a way that there is no need for a separate sheet of rules? The Easy-play fighting mechanic (for example) wouldn't require that much more text simply to include in each of the relevant paragraphs... ,you could even add a few variations to each fight via the paragraph text to add spice and "personalise" the opponents.
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 417
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Post by sscrompton on Jul 2, 2023 11:21:50 GMT -5
Part of the point of the easy play rules is that you don't have to go researching things on the internet to play. Somebody finds or is given the solo and they can use the solo to play with the rules that are in the book. If someone is just interested in that particular solo they can casually play it as sort of a test drive. If they enjoy it, they might then be willing to see how the longer rules work and then try those and even other solos.
Could the Easy Play Rules be improved? Certainly you've all made some good suggestions here and we may try to incorporate them into the next solo we add them too. We decided early on not to add easy play stats etc into the solo so they it wouldn;t confuse regular M!M! players or interfear with the narrative of the story.
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Post by ProfGremlin on Jul 2, 2023 12:17:37 GMT -5
sscrompton Steve, the solo also mentions the quickstart rules for M!M! added to the back of the module. I haven't found a copy available online. Is it available?
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 533
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Post by mosker on Jul 2, 2023 13:05:03 GMT -5
That I think is the crucial thing for me. Little challenge to ponder Dave; could the rules be reduced still further? Like, to zero pages? Not a wholly frivolous question; could the mechanics be baked-in to the solo itself in such a way that there is no need for a separate sheet of rules? The Easy-play fighting mechanic (for example) wouldn't require that much more text simply to include in each of the relevant paragraphs... ,you could even add a few variations to each fight via the paragraph text to add spice and "personalise" the opponents. You are very much on to something...in fact, as an alternative I look at what video games have perfected, and then often go overboard with: diving in and then a sequence of play-and-pause-and-learn loops: the instructions could be in paragraph or in a stack of paragraphs at the end of the book. ( Your first saving roll! sounds a bit like Baby's first SR or Everybody DAROs Sometimes...). The value of this--as opposed to a chunk of rules--is the players don't feel any pressure, and have little incentive to learn something until they are using it. (E.g.: I'm working on a situation where there's an SR competition with some strategy and I'm having enough trouble making it stick with readers in the moment. Putting it in front or back of the scenario as a sidebar: "The One-Upsmanship Attribute and Level Selection Face-Off Rules"?!? No. No. No." )
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 2, 2023 18:28:39 GMT -5
That I think is the crucial thing for me. Little challenge to ponder Dave; could the rules be reduced still further? Like, to zero pages? Not a wholly frivolous question; could the mechanics be baked-in to the solo itself in such a way that there is no need for a separate sheet of rules? The Easy-play fighting mechanic (for example) wouldn't require that much more text simply to include in each of the relevant paragraphs... ,you could even add a few variations to each fight via the paragraph text to add spice and "personalise" the opponents. You are very much on to something...in fact, as an alternative I look at what video games have perfected, and then often go overboard with: diving in and then a sequence of play-and-pause-and-learn loops: the instructions could be in paragraph or in a stack of paragraphs at the end of the book. ( Your first saving roll! sounds a bit like Baby's first SR or Everybody DAROs Sometimes...). The value of this--as opposed to a chunk of rules--is the players don't feel any pressure, and have little incentive to learn something until they are using it. (E.g.: I'm working on a situation where there's an SR competition with some strategy and I'm having enough trouble making it stick with readers in the moment. Putting it in front or back of the scenario as a sidebar: "The One-Upsmanship Attribute and Level Selection Face-Off Rules"?!? No. No. No." )The biggest drawback of rules-taught-in-module is that it then makes it unsuited for use with other rulesets. It also, quite literally, reduces replay value; that research was done by a few computer games publishers in the 90's IIRC; it's why most computer games now have the ability to skip the tutorial mode - players get rather annoyed at having to go through the tutorial a second time. I've heard minor grumbles from running players who'd played the starter modules for Star Wars AoR then the Star Wars EotE -- both are tutorial modules. (There are 5 tutorial modules for Edge's née FFG's Star Wars lines; 4 are commercially available modules. The one I've not run is F&D's -- not everyone playing multiple of them complained. But every time I've had more than 2 repeaters, one's complained about tutorial mode.) The other drawback is that it will either bloat the early chunk of the adventure, or will require the tutorial section to be pretty linear... either way, it's not a good choice.
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 533
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Post by mosker on Jul 2, 2023 19:14:53 GMT -5
It also, quite literally, reduces replay value; that research was done by a few computer games publishers in the 90's IIRC; it's why most computer games now have the ability to skip the tutorial mode - players get rather annoyed at having to go through the tutorial a second time. I've heard minor grumbles from running players who'd played the starter modules for Star Wars AoR then the Star Wars EotE -- both are tutorial modules. (There are 5 tutorial modules for Edge's née FFG's Star Wars lines; 4 are commercially available modules. The one I've not run is F&D's -- not everyone playing multiple of them complained. But every time I've had more than 2 repeaters, one's complained about tutorial mode.) The other drawback is that it will either bloat the early chunk of the adventure, or will require the tutorial section to be pretty linear... either way, it's not a good choice. All really good points. I was thinking about this as much as a promo project (e.g. Free RPG day) rather than a serious revenue generator. Or something small enough to be tacked on the beginning or end of a bigger project. It's also what I was thinking of when I suggested the stacked laser-focussed rules paragraphs ( How to fight, How to make a saving roll...) at the end with perhaps a parenthetical ( New to Saving Rolls? Turn to...) within the paragraph so players don't have to relive the tutorial. There are only so many candidates for first saving roll or combat where such reminders can be dropped, quickly, but the players will know, be aware of where to turn for instructions on the specific issue, not just "How to play the big game, condensed". All far far from perfect, but done right enough ( if it's possible) still not quite a bulky solution in search of a problem, or worse, a way to chase off existing fans in pursuit of hypothetical new players. Maybe. [EDIT/ADDENDUM] And all of this makes me distinctly aware of what I don't know about the potential M!M! audience and their expectations (and knowledge of the system) once the successor to the Meta Arcade app launches. The last update from sscrompton was intriguing and exciting...all of that art. Psyche.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 2, 2023 23:35:55 GMT -5
I should add: I don't think it's bad to have the super easy play rules bound in - but I think it needs to be a separate compatibility mark for the sales channels. Say, maybe, "For use with Monsters! Monsters! Optional Easy Play alternate rules also included." And, of course ideally...
"For use with Monsters! Monsters! M!M! Test-drive rules included. Optional Easy Play alternate rules also included."
One other "dirty sales trick" is to include different kindred choices in each, so those sticking to Test Drive have two reasons to buy... and possibly make one of them new in each, so completionist grogs grab them, too.
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