Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jan 18, 2010 23:50:04 GMT -5
I've just been thinking about why we won't see a new version of T&T (ultimate or otherwise) that we, the fans want... I think this is the reason:
Bear Peters said that 'back in the day' T&T generated full time employment for up to 9 people. Now THAT is a real business, doing 'real business'. Ahh, the very good ol' days.
Those days are over but unlike the producers of the new and mighty fine Dragon Warriors role-plaing game, Ken and Rick don't believe those days will ever return. T&T isn't really a business in the true sense.
It's now a hobby, not a hobby in the way that role-playing is a hobby - it's Ken's hobby.
If Hasbro (or whomever) decided to cook up a new version of 'x' rpg they would tap the pulse of the players, find out what everyone was crying out for and deliver just that. Knowing full well that if you give a hungry mob what they want, they buy it. That's business.
The next T&T game to be written by Ken will be purchased by me because I'm a collector and because I think Ken created one of the best ways to enjoy the hobby I love - role-playing. However, I doubt very much I will play the new game.
The new game will have been created largely in a vacuum for the purspose of one person, playing online with some very close friends: namely, Ken and the Trollhalla regulars. It will have little or no playtesting. It will probably be a vanity publication paid for by Ken and sold to Trollhalla members to recoup costs.
Rick is probably not at the stage in his career where he wants to take a gamble on a market that is awash with new and retro games. Fiery Dragon have shown almost no interest in supporting the game despite going through 3 print-runs. I don't think either of these publishers will offer a viable solution to Ken (hence the suggestion of the vanity publication).
So what to do?
Not a lot really, the same that's been going on for many years. T&T has languished in a near-death state kept alive only by the blood of addicted fans. Looking back, I don't think "that company" really made a substantive contribution to T&T but only because I think the content that saw publication under that banner would have appeared anyway. Either straight from Lulu or on the websites of loyal fans. In both cases it would have been much cheaper or more likely free.
A glimmer of hope? The only bright ending to this story that I can see is a publisher like Mongoose paying some heavy dollars to Rick for the license and producing a new edition (T&T Redux or whatever). I think a canny mob like Mongoose would take 5E and 7E, give them to one or two of their in-house writers and turn out a pretty good game. It would be a hardcover publication (calm down Mach) with great (legitimate) art, online support, an 'official' forum and a bi-monthy publication schedule for new products...
That future seems so bright I need my shades.
Other than that possibility I see the game surviving on a stew of fan-based material until Rick runs out of copies of 5.5E then the game will stop gaining new players but content will continue to grow thanks to the fans.
Ah well...
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jan 19, 2010 4:12:16 GMT -5
I think Tom's got an issue, in that a lot of people claim TAG is T&T knocked off... I don't know if it is or not, I've never read it, but I've read that assertion by several posters who claim to have read it, and on several different boards.
So, Tom, just how close is TAG to T&T?
Is it your "ultimate T&T" edition? I'm genuinely curious, and the discussion has raised that to level I'll ask it in the open.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jan 19, 2010 4:23:08 GMT -5
Hogscape: Outlaw did make a substantiative contribution in that it provided core rules during the drought at FBInc. It also showed that the fans were willing to take (no offense intended) wacky alternate rulesets in stride and accept them as T&T despite some very serious changes to the mechanics of character creation.
And it allowed me to get a genuinely legal copy of Starfaring. And I got Gamma-trollworld. Which is, itself, a pseudo-clone of Gammaworld.
I wanted starfaring the moment I found out it existed. I wish it were more playable, but hey!
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Post by zanshin on Jan 19, 2010 4:47:45 GMT -5
Some great posts there order99 and Hogscape. Expressing what i think far better than I can, and less aggressively as well. Thank you.
I didn't know FDP had been through 3 print runs, thats actually pretty good news. I get the impression that they are not that big a concern, so it would be difficult for them to become the 'Mongoose' of T&T.
I see some encouraging signs for T&T in the opening up of Trollhalla and the increased interest on RPG Net and so on. I think the shipwreck of "that company" has at least expanded the profile of T&T - crisis/opportunity two sides of the same coin as they say. lets hope that we can keep the T&T flames burning brightly.
I think what would probably be needed for T&T to break out would be a decent setting publication , something like Pavis for Runequest. Its had loads of great adventures, it is the go to game for solos, but it has not IIRC had a major setting put down.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jan 19, 2010 5:43:19 GMT -5
Hogscape: Outlaw did make a substantiative contribution in that it provided core rules during the drought at FBInc. It also showed that the fans were willing to take (no offense intended) wacky alternate rulesets in stride and accept them as T&T despite some very serious changes to the mechanics of character creation. And it allowed me to get a genuinely legal copy of Starfaring. And I got Gamma-trollworld. Which is, itself, a pseudo-clone of Gammaworld. I wanted starfaring the moment I found out it existed. I wish it were more playable, but hey! Good pickup Aramis! |
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Post by hrrrothgarrr on Jan 19, 2010 14:14:45 GMT -5
I think the T&T community is now large enough and diverse enough that we will never again have an "ultimate" edition. We have players here who favor 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 7.5th.
Considering that 6th was never an "offical" edition that is a pretty good spread.
I think that the closest to ultimate just may be the free version now on-line and printed inthe solos etc. Just enough to let you play the game and inspire your imagination from there.
In order for T&T to bloom again I think it needs something that is very unlikely to happen. It needs a marketing campaign to put it in mainstream book and game stores everywhere. Not just comic book shops and RPG stores, but Borders, Barnes&Noble and Chapters. Not just the rules, but adventures, supplements and sourcebooks.
Then it needs people to pick it up and play it. I am not sure T&T offers the sort of experience that enough people are looking for these days though. Even with marketing and widespread availablity. Who has had luck converting existing gamers away from something else to T&T?
T&T is easy for a certain type of non-roleplayer to pick up and enjoy. Those are teh people who are drawn to creative, interactive story telling. The sort who like lots of detailed mechanics and crunch are not going to be drawn to T&T. T&T SRs do not have the same cache as D&D Feats or Stunts or whatever they call k3wl pow3rz these days.
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Post by zanshin on Jan 19, 2010 14:43:44 GMT -5
I have had luck getting experienced roleplayers to play T&T.
A lot of people see it as a nice change of pace.
I agree, hitting the mainstream, probably not going to happen. Bigger within roleplaying? Sure, definitely could - fast play games have a big following at the moment
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Post by bdfiscus on Jan 20, 2010 11:15:33 GMT -5
I think the T&T community is now large enough and diverse enough that we will never again have an "ultimate" edition. We have players here who favor 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 7.5th. Considering that 6th was never an "offical" edition that is a pretty good spread. I think that the closest to ultimate just may be the free version now on-line and printed inthe solos etc. Just enough to let you play the game and inspire your imagination from there. In order for T&T to bloom again I think it needs something that is very unlikely to happen. It needs a marketing campaign to put it in mainstream book and game stores everywhere. Not just comic book shops and RPG stores, but Borders, Barnes&Noble and Chapters. Not just the rules, but adventures, supplements and sourcebooks. Then it needs people to pick it up and play it. I am not sure T&T offers the sort of experience that enough people are looking for these days though. Even with marketing and widespread availablity. Who has had luck converting existing gamers away from something else to T&T? T&T is easy for a certain type of non-roleplayer to pick up and enjoy. Those are teh people who are drawn to creative, interactive story telling. The sort who like lots of detailed mechanics and crunch are not going to be drawn to T&T. T&T SRs do not have the same cache as D&D Feats or Stunts or whatever they call k3wl pow3rz these days. Labyrinth Lord and Swords and Wizardry (Moldvay Basic and 0E DnD clones) are both in distribution and available in stores. T&T could definitely take some cues from them. Take 5.5, "remaster" it with some nice production values, maybe one more editing pass, and additional art (not "pathfinder level" overboard; mind you ! - but something at the level of the new Dragon Warriors; or even approaching Dragon Age !) But good god.... GET IT IN THE STORES.. and get it demo'ed at con's and at FLGS tables to attract interest ! |
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jan 20, 2010 12:54:06 GMT -5
Biggest issue with T&T is perception.
I agree that DW's relaunch is a good model: great art, clear modern layout. Edited for playability, laid out for use, presented in good looking text and with exquisite production values by an editor (James Wallace) noted for detail oriented editing (Back a few years, and he was the power behind Hogshead Publishing.)
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jan 20, 2010 14:31:56 GMT -5
Heck, it doesn't even need to be in brick-n-mortar stores. Who in the heck gets gaming stuff at game stores anymore anyhow? Who even has games stores at all anymore? Let alone one that has anything more than D&D4E and Warhammer minis, period.
Seems to me the overwhelming majority of gamers get the overwhelming majority of their stuff from online dealers and means. Amazon, eBay, Noble Knight, FRP Games, straight from the publisher themselves, RPGNow and DriveThruRPG, Lulu, etc.,etc.
As far as getting folks interested in T&T, I don't see that as difficult. After all, Dragon Age is getting lots of positive reactions and it's so much like T&T it's not even funny ('m'K, that's hyperbole, but ya know what I mean). The most significant difference is that it's 'new an' shiny'.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jan 20, 2010 19:54:02 GMT -5
Green Ronin have pulled off a cunning marketing ploy with Dragon Age by releasing the PDF before the print copy. They've created interest, anticipation and revenue (and cleared up the errata) to ensure a strong release. Okay, it also looks awesome and has some great rules...
However, I still maintain that whilst Rick and Ken don't have the faith or energy for T&T we, the players can only wish.
I raised the clone-revival issue with Ken years ago. He shot me down, essentially saying, "that might work for them but it won't work for T&T..." and going on to say he didn't have the resources for a T&T revival.
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Post by Vin Ahrr Vin on Jan 20, 2010 21:00:12 GMT -5
[booming moderator voice, with approprate echo effect:]
Just a friendly reminder to PLAY NICE, EVERYONE!
It appears that in the heat of battle some folks are forgetting that the term "Edition Wars" isn't to be taken seriously here. If you want to argue about stuff, go find another board and duke it out there. If you want to polietly discuss T&T, please stay on the line.... :-)
I decided to hand out a couple of "time out" penalties. A couple of folks won't be able to post for a couple of days. I don't want to come off as heavy handed on this, but I'd rather that a few people calm down instead of having to ban them. :-(
[/booming moderator voice, with approprate echo effect:]
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jan 20, 2010 21:30:54 GMT -5
*hides beer bottles, turns off stereo, swallows cigarette*
We're playin' nice!
;D
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Post by ragnorakk on Jan 20, 2010 21:54:57 GMT -5
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Post by wilowisp on Jan 20, 2010 22:00:07 GMT -5
*Checks to make sure he can post.............*  |
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