Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jul 30, 2009 22:02:21 GMT -5
I'm sure everyone's already seen this but I certainly overlooked it...
Ken's 1999 house rules had this to say about Power which I quite like...
Power takes the place of Strength in earlier editions of Tunnels and Trolls for powering magic, and it can be depleted and restored in the same fashion.
Rapid Power loss can deplete Strength as well. When casting a spell that costs Power equal to 1/2 Strength or more, make a Strength saving roll on the level of the spell being cast, or else become temporarily too weak to walk for as many minutes as you missed the saving roll by. At the Game Master’s discretion, Power can be used in a saving roll to resist magical spells cast upon a character.
I think these rules are far better and more succinct that those that made it into the 7.x....
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 31, 2009 0:17:36 GMT -5
I read it as "more complex than 7.0" rather than "More succinct"...
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jul 31, 2009 0:22:38 GMT -5
Nope, lost me there my friend...
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 31, 2009 2:34:58 GMT -5
7.0, you don't have to track ST from casting, only Wiz. It's simpler.
(Ok, the Resistance rule is a touch complex, but it also changes Pow from unused by Warriors to having a real meaning even for warriors...)
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jul 31, 2009 5:23:28 GMT -5
Actually, POW is a stat for all Types, so it always had a "real meaning even for warriors".
If by "tracking ST", you mean counting it down from spell using in addition to POW, then no, it's just recognizing the half-strength thing. SR failed means a collapse. I s'pose it is simpler to only deal with WIZ alone, but it's a matter of a hundredth of a second to glance at a STR score. That said, I wouldn't bother with the half-STR thing muhself.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 31, 2009 5:50:55 GMT -5
And that "extra thing to remember" is good reason why it's gone. If you remember, it' a quick 1-2 sec... bt someone will forget,s oemone else will call them on it, yada, yada, yada...
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jul 31, 2009 7:04:49 GMT -5
And that "extra thing to remember" is good reason why it's gone. If you remember, it' a quick 1-2 sec... bt someone will forget,s oemone else will call them on it, yada, yada, yada... True. But, heck, man... I could say that about pretty much every rule in every rpg. -lol- I just keep WIZ (or rather Arcane, taken from M6E, since I like the sound of ARC better cuz I'm shallow like that), under the same guidelines as ST in 5th ed. as pertains to magic. Use too much ARC in one go and you're on the ground, likely dead (depending on the circumstance).
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jul 31, 2009 9:03:45 GMT -5
Hmmmm, Kremm resistance a good thing or...
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jul 31, 2009 9:30:36 GMT -5
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Aug 1, 2009 0:16:59 GMT -5
I think we have another illustration of people (even Ken???) just not getting one of the great features of T&T. It used to bug the heck out of me until I saw the light. Initially I added all sorts of additional Stats, POW, AGILity, PSON... if I felt something was lacking in it would go.
Then I realised the stat ST is just an indicator, the ST label gives us a hint for the types of things you can use it for. ST for Warriors the main purpose is for physical strength, for Magic users it's for Kremm or magical strength. And it can have other uses, TOO. CON, oh that's just Health, no, it can be used for Tenacity, Endurance, for staying awake on guard, and when the Barbarian goes to the bordello, first wench of an evening is Level 1 SR on CON, second Level 2, and so on. Even Barbarians have trouble with a Level 10 SR on Con. IQ, puzzle solving, learning, memory. The only reason I use Speed at all, is that it doesn't get leveled up so it's a great one to limit high level characters. Again I'll use it for a foot-race and a quickdraw.
The characters stats are not a complete numerical photograph of the character, they are a very loose approximation that allows Role-Playing.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 1, 2009 7:33:34 GMT -5
Agreed. Though I find a use for POW or WIZ stat, I too went through the same process. Not with regards to T&T's stats in particular, but with rpgs in general. It was a long time before I understood and appreciated the abstract game-ness of it. It was something I didn't grasp for while. This and other things kept me from T&T and other games for a long time. It's a pity to have wasted that time with trying to find something "realistic" but I'm glad I went through that learning curve. It's possible I'm a better GM and player for it, and certainly more relaxed.
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Post by feldrik on Aug 1, 2009 8:45:07 GMT -5
Early in the year I did get to experiment with Charisma as the power source for spells. The players did not know I had changed the original rule so they could not give feedback. It did make use of the most under appresiated (in my experience) stat in most games. Most people change from Strength to something else to avoid the Conan the Magician effect. Overall quoghmyer has re-educated me on the subtlties of T&T, it has reenforced my resolve to go 'by the book' and not succumb to those that want it all to be like the game they already know.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 1, 2009 9:33:01 GMT -5
I've actually been thinking about CON as an alternative to WIZ or ST. In makes sense in an abstract way, as much as ST. Also, it would also help avoid the assumption of really strong wizards, as well as enforce the notion that wizards shouldn't be in melee. (It may be better to regulate in a lower-magic setting however, as wizards would have to be even more careful about casting.)
Even though I prefer a seperate magic stat, I didn't choose it because of the hulking spell-caster "problem". I realize that the stats are abstract, and I also realize that high strenght doesn't necessarily mean really strong, much less hugly muscled. I've mentioned this before in another thread a while back, but based on what we see in the film Die Hard, I'd say that Bruce Willis' John McClane has a really high ST score. He doesn't look like it, but he displays it, not just in a physical lifting and climbing way (raw strength) either. But also in the way he 'taps into it'. How he uses it to it's best benefit.
This is why you don't see guys who climb, cut down and then tote away massive trees for a living built like Arnold Schwarzenegger. These dudes are freakin' strong as he** believe you me. Though they can deal with and lift things more than a body-builder could because, again, there's a huge difference between muscle mass and muscle density and in terms of raw and more importantly, usable and adaptable strength, muscle density has a massive edge over "big muscles" (also these guys have something else that body-builders don't have that's just as important as the muscles and that's strong ligiments and tendons, the muscles can't accomplish nearly as much without everything else being tough).
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Aug 1, 2009 10:35:19 GMT -5
I stopped using ST and added Pow in the late 90's due to the Hulk-Mage effect, and that ST powering Wizards' magic lead to a number of issues with players quitting.
I think, in this case, Ken didn't get the problem until after 5.0... but by 2000 clearly had come to realize that, as written, it had unintended consequences that rendered wizards needing to be as buff or buffer than warriors. A Pow stat cures that... but it becomes a warrior's dump stat if not rolling stats in order.
Now, from what I gather, 5.0 made one huge change... in 4, it appears to one without it, that Warriors had to have ST highest, Wizards IQ highest, and Rogues needed Luck highest. If that were true, it prevented the weirdnesses I saw in 5.0: Wizards were the strongest. Warriors the luckiest. Rogues, well, they suffered both.
This was an artifact of the rules. (Playing the game that was written, not the game I thought it should be.) See, once a warrior has a buff weapon, and isn't berserking, ST is not your best gain. Luck is. it gets you twice the adds that St or DX will. Wizards needed ST for two purposes: Spellcasting and Melee adds. A darven wizard was scary as heck... 2d+20 wasn't unheard of. At 5th level, he's dropping a L2 TTYF for 4 points, doing about 20 directed, or 2d+20 in melee... go figure... oh, and wearing 10+point armor.
First PC I let use TARO from KHR... Dwarf Warrior. ST 38, DX20, CN 20, IQ9, LK 12, CH 2, MeAdds: 26, Missile 34, was wearing 5 point piecemeal, for 10AV, and weilding a 4+2 sword and a Madu... at 2nd level, he buffed LK, to 16 upping adds to 30. At 3rd, he buffed Lk again, to 22, for adds to 36. At 4th, he buffed it again, to 30, for 44 adds, and at 5th, he upped LK again, for Lk40 and 54 adds. He had all the ST he needed, and the dex, too... and Lk was the fastest way to get adds.
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Post by feldrik on Aug 1, 2009 15:42:17 GMT -5
I though TARO was only for Humans.
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