Weight Units

[Hogscape]

Weight Units... I see the value of the statistic for solo adventures but I've finally dropped carrying capacity from my face-to-face games in favour of a 'I'll tell you when what you're carrying is a problem' approach.

What are the thoughts on encumberance?

I find the 'micro-management' inherent in most enc. systems to serve little purpose other than to slow down the game.

[Aramis of Erak]

I tend to not count worn armor, worn clothing, nor 1 habitually sidearm and 1 habitually worn knife. (Yeah, it's a Travellerism.)

I do use weight units in FTF play. I'm lax about it, but if I catch an error, I hit them with 1d6 ST loss.

[machfront]

My problem with weight units actually lies with Wt. Possible and ST.

It just doesn't work out with my reconciliation of the higher attribute scores of T&T being more abstract in nature. That is to say, that a character with, say, a ST of 30 is not an Ah-nahld, but rather someone who's fit, yes, but who also knows how to use his strength to it's utmost. Bruce Willis as John McClean in Die Hard.
I mean...carrying 300lbs.? For as many turns as this PC would have in CON...which would likely be in the 20s at least? Yeesh.

Of course...my other problem are the weapon weights themselves. I mean, really. A broadsword that weighs as much as any four or five broadswords put together?!? What the heck was Ken thinking?!?

[zanshin]

I tend to make characters work out encumbrance so that they fall on that bag of holding with enormous gratitude

Treat em mean to keep em keen

[sligo]

If everyone has some kind of "bag of holding", then it's never an issue.

I might recommend that a character's weight limit should be based on a formula that considers the characrter's actual weight which is modified by STR & CON.

Thinking outloud: Characters' actual weight doubled (x10), Avg of STR & CON divided by level, added to the total (not x10). Sound reasonable?

[ProfGremlin]

Feb 12, 2010 10:21:59 GMT -5 sligo said:

Thinking outloud: Characters' actual weight doubled (x10), Avg of STR & CON divided by level, added to the total (not x10). Sound reasonable?

Sligo, if you divide the average of ST & Con by the level won't that mean the higher your level the less you can carry?

Example:
(15 St + 15 Con)/2 = 15/1st level = 15
(15 St + 15 Con)/2 = 15/10th level = 1.5

[sligo]

Hopefully, when you're 10th level, you're STR & CON won't still be 15! I was just thinking out loud, of course. Perhaps using attributes is a bad idea from the get-go, because we're dealing with weight carried in terms of clothing, equipment, etc. Sure, my character with uber-high strength can bench-press a 3-ton boulder, but does it make sense that I can strap said boulder to my back, on top of my backpack, and carry it around? Or even worse, hitch it to my belt... I'm not sure there's a belt in existence that can hold that much weight.

I think the GM should simply rule based upon what is reasonable, and perhaps do away with the whole weight-carried thing altogether. When characters collect loot, they should instead specify how they intend to carry it. If they want to pull a Radio-Flyer wagon around with them in the dungeon, that's fine, but I don't care how strong they are, no one is able to stick 7 sets of magic plate armor in their backpack.

[quoghmyre]

NZ went metric about 40 years ago. So my players have no idea what a pound is, nor Feet and Inches.

It's not a problem for distance as 3 feet is about a metre.

We measure our tunnel and path widths in people, it's either single file, two people wide, and so on.

With weight carried, I only worry when they obviously have too much to carry. Then I quickly work out an approx. based on ST * 100 and compare that to the coins they are carrying.

It is fun to let a group of adventurers fight and journey far from home and bring them into an Aladdin's cave. Mountains of gold. But you can only carry... and then travel becomes 1/4 speed, so they get 4 times as many WM's. Generally they just drop the heavy treasure when fighting. This invites the WM's to try and run off with it. There's a age of playing them just trying to get one full load back to town. And the lengths they will go to, to ensure nothing can track them back to "Their" treasure cave. ;D

[order99]

Don't forget that money isn't always gold! Any self-respecting pack of bandits( or monsters) will have probably brought back one or more of the following:


Rare woods, in timber form or pre-worked.
Ornate earthenware, possibly chased with metallic leaf or common stones.
Skins of Black Wine (thick syrupy wine in which the water has been partially removed for travel, to be diluted with water on arrival). Based on the environment,you will have either a vintage similar to premium aged brandy or a fragrant gourmet vinegar.
Spices, in pouches or in brick form.
Rare herbal teas for medicinal or recreational use.
Narcotics and medicines for same.
Glass mirrors/windows (very difficult to create once...common mirrors were polished metal and common windows were either thin oilskin or translucent horn).
Rare books and scrolls.
Coinage from past ages, worth more to a collector than the weights would indicate.
Heavy alloys in bar or powder form, for smithing that perfect weapon or armor.
Amber, coral, shell, pearls or marble for the artisans to make jewelry and decorative inlays.
Silk, fine linens, velvet and other fine cloth.
Animal or vegetable oil for lamps.
Tar for torches and caulking ships.


I had an Aladdin's Cave scenario last year in a Pendragon game. The PCs turned up thier noses at cask after cask of bad ale and chest after chest of sprouting grain and rotted fruit, and reported their failure to the Baron. It wasn't until after a tearful explanation by the Baron's guest (the merchant whose cargo had been taken) that the players understood their characters had turned down-

-a dozen casks of tasty malt vinegar
-a dozen casks of white oak, valued by vintners for aging wine, ales and vinegars
-rare seeds from exotic fruit trees, many of which would thrive in British soil
-a half dozen varieties of new grain types, which could have been planted if they had been rescued from the dark cave in time
-and 14 chests made of mahogany and olive wood inlay, copper and waxed leather hinged and clasped.

Oh well.

[mahrundl]

You really do an excellent line in evil, order99! ;D ;D ;D

[kristanigrad]

Very nice! - i hadn't even thought about valuable goods instead of the standard set of shinies.

[order99]

Feb 28, 2010 3:54:17 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

You really do an excellent line in evil, order99! ;D ;D ;D

Honestly wasn't intentional that time-just getting into a quasi-historical medieval economy, where goods were as valuable as coin. And it's not like the merchant was afraid to accompany them, but the PCs insisted that he (brave enough to attempt cross-country trade and wily enough to escape the brigands) was a liability...sigh.

While we're on the subject-I mentioned books earlier. Massive, hand copied and illuminated tomes, wood paneling and leather covers,gilt edgework and stamp...heavy, bulky and subject to a dozen environmental ills, but worth much, much loot to the right persons. Bring waxed leather packs lined with wool and a mule.

No, if I were evil, i'd introduce them to the concept of where 'salary' comes from...huge, tarred leather jacks of SALT, enough to afford a modest retirement! Now how to get them back to a grateful civilization without a brace of oxen, wagons with weatherproof covers, through bandit-infested territory get a decent price from the Merchant's quarter and avoid the Baron's Excisemen....now that would be-just a touch-Evil.

As far as coin weights go-coins and gems were renowned for portability. My coin weights for PCs are usually counted thusly:

Half-full bag of coins-10 lbs. May be used as a (1D+2, breaks when maximum damage is rolled) blackjack.
Full bag of coins-20 lbs. May be used as 2D-1 weapon (St 4, Dx 4, breaks when maximum damage is rolled).
Half-full sack of coins-90 lbs. May be used as a 2D+3 weapon (St 14, Dx 8, subject to breakage)
Brimful sack of coins-190 lbs. Not enough 'neck' left to swing, but may be used as shield (St 21, Dx4, stops 5 pts damage, but loses 1pt every time used to block. At 0 pts all your coins are on the floor).

....yes, my players have done this. Surely you know the truth of this by now? ;D

[machfront]

Mar 2, 2010 23:05:09 GMT -5 order99 said:

....yes, my players have done this. Surely you know the truth of this by now? ;D

Abundantly! ;D
In fact, sometimes I'm afraid I'll show up at a game, and it'll be your players instead of mine.

[ishtar]

Feb 12, 2010 6:19:02 GMT -5 machfront said:

Of course...my other problem are the weapon weights themselves. I mean, really. A broadsword that weighs as much as any four or five broadswords put together?!? What the heck was Ken thinking?!?

It wasn't just Ken that was thinking that. Misconceptions about the weight and maneuverability of medieval weapons and armor, even by scholars who should know better, go back hundreds of years. The wargaming community picked up those misconceptions, and Gygax based his numbers on the incorrect information. Ken's original weapons list is clearly derived from the D&D list, passing on the incorrect data.

Here's a link to an article about it, and about how much the weapons actually weigh:

www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

Estimates of weights of other things can be wildly off base, too.

[zanshin]

Great article Ishtar. Thanks!

I had thought that the massive list of weapons in T&T (so many daggers ) had come from Kens librarianship. But the article clearly conveys that a lot of historians had got this wrong as well.

Anyway, maybe weapons are that heavy in Trollworld