Sorry vestinious, my question was badly formulated. What i was trying to say was, the rulebook suggests using weapon dice as a balancing factor when determaning balanced critters. Shouldn't the PCs adds also be taken into account?
Post by vestinious on Jan 23, 2006 11:05:27 GMT -5
I think it would work out the same.
Say your party has in total 200 adds , divided that by 10 and you get 20 damage dice.
Or a MR of 200 divided by 10 equals 20 damage dice.
Its all the same.
Lets take an example , my trollhalla alter-ego has adds of 80 and CON 40. He his using a short sword 3 damage dice. So a fair fight is a 3 damage dice monster which when times 10 equals a MR of 30. My max damage is 3*6+80 or 98 Monsters max damage is 3*6+15 or 33 Not including spite damage.
No I see your point now hmmm time to quiz ken on this.
Last Edit: Jan 23, 2006 11:27:10 GMT -5 by vestinious
There comes a point when a player character's weapon becomes more or less irrelevant as its combat adds really determines the fight. The dice just add a random addition to the combat adds.
Perhaps that is what one should focus on when determining a monster's MR. For instance, to counter a player with 80 combat adds, a monster would have to generate 80+ points each round. In this case, a monster with a MR of 100 would generate an average of (11x3.5) + 50 = 88.5 hits per round, not counting spite.
Perhaps the formula is to set the monster's MR to 125% of the PC's adds, then assign the corresponding dice?
PC adds = 60 -> MR of 75 -> 8x3.5 + 38 = 66 hits PC adds = 40 -> MR of 50 -> 6x3.5 + 25 = 46 hits PC adds = 10 -> MR of 13 -> 2x3.5 + 7 = 14 hits PC adds = 100 -> MR of 125 -> 13x3.5 + 63 = 108.5 hits.
Perhaps setting the MR to ~150% of the PC's adds would account for weapons, although I think that would fall apart at higher levels. It might work at lower levels....
Just a stream of consciousness with no forethought.
Post by vestinious on Jan 23, 2006 12:51:02 GMT -5
Yes I was starting to think along those lines basing MR on adds but to make a gm's life easy a simple chart or guide would be of use. The must simple way would require a change to the rules system that being the adds a monster gets is equal to its MR and give it less dice to throw in combat (like half it uses now but no less than 1 damage dice to keep the random edge).
Post by vestinious on Jan 23, 2006 14:14:11 GMT -5
OK a fair way would be ,
Based on my trollhalla troll adds +80 CON 40.
If you put both adds and CON together you get 120, half this for an MR of 60. OK a bit together but , an MR of 60 would make 6 damage dice and adds of +30. Compare the two max damages my troll 98 and the monster 96. Thats not to far off.
<begin> An MR-based foe produces a hit-point total roughly equal to 85% of its MR. It's actually a little more than this. Add MR/2 + (MR/10 + 1)*3.5, and you get (MR * 0.85) + 3.5. So it's basically 85% of its MR, plus one die. Our formula is HPT = MR * 0.85 + 3.5 for an MR-rated monster.
If we knew what sort of HPT we wanted our MR-based foe to generate, we could calculate the desired MR from that, like so: MR = (HPT - 3.5) / 0.85. So, all we need to know is a desired HPT, and we can calculate the MR that gives us that HPT on the average.
Most solos will state that "this solo is for adventurers with combat adds not exceeding X", or something similar. You can assume that most PCs that players will take into that solo will have combat adds very close to X.
Some solos also state that the PC will start with certain weapon(s) and armor. This really helps the author to figure averages for PC attacks, but to me, it sort of takes away some of the fun of acquiring weapons and armor from the other adventures I've been through before playing the current one.
I figure that even beginning PCs will have a 3 to 5 dice weapon, or 2 dice and spell ability. More experienced PCs will have a 5 to 7 dice weapon, or 2 dice and even more potent spell ability. Advanced PCs will have weapons that are magically enhanced to do more than 7 dice, or spells that easily cause more than 7 dice of damage. There is no upper limit except what the solo author places on PCs that are allowed into the adventure.
The amount of armor a PC has will also vary depending on experience. A beginning PC might not have any armor, or only a couple of points of protection. An intermediate PC could easily have 6 to 12 points of protection. An advanced PC could have 40 or more points of protection.
So you have to decide if your solo is for beginning PCs or more experienced PCs, and do your best to estimate how many dice and adds they'll have, plus how much armor protection they might have. There's no hard and fast rule, but let me describe a few possibilities...
Really low-power, beginning PCs: Combat adds < 5 (use an average of 0 for our calculations, to allow for PCs with negative combat adds). Weapon = 3 dice. This gives an average HPT of 10.5. So let's say we want to come up with an MR for a foe that will give us an average HPT of 10.5. Our formula is MR = (HPT - 3.5) / 0.85. Plugging 10.5 in for the HPT in this formula gives us MR = 7 / 0.85 = 8. MR 8 = 1 die + 4 adds = average HPT of 7.5. We undershot our goal of 10.5 HPT by roughly one die. This is because the assignment of dice to a MR-based monster is not a smooth function, but a step function. So we're off. But we're in the ball park, and can tweak the calculated MR if necessary. (Note that if we used MR = 9, we get 1 die and 5 adds = average HPT of 8.5. If we used MR = 10, we get 2 dice and 5 adds = average HPT of 12. There's no way an MR-rated monster is going to have an average HPT of 10.5. So all we can hope for anyway is to get in the ballpark with our formula.)
Beginning PCs with good dice rolls for attributes, and/or some good kindred modifiers: Combat adds in the range of 5 to 20. We'll use an average of 12. Weapon dice = 4. Armor protection = 2. This gives an HPT of 26, and 2 points of protection. So our MR-based foe needs to be able to generate an HPT of 28 to be on an even standing with the PC. Our formula gives us an MR = (28 - 3.5) / 0.85 = 24.5 / 0.85 = 29. A foe with MR 29 in combat is 3 dice and 15 adds = average HPT of 25.5. Again, we're slightly under our desired HPT, but we're close.
Intermediate PCs: Average of 20 combat adds, 6 dice weapon, 12 points of armor. Estimated HPT = 41. Add the 12 points of protection, and our MR-based foe needs to generate an HPT of 53. Plug 53 into our formula, and we get 49.5 / 0.85 = 58. MR 58 gives 6 dice and 29 adds = average HPT of 50. Once again, we're slightly under our desired HPT...
Advanced PCs: Average of 50 combat adds, 15 dice magical weapon, 40 points of armor. Estimated HPT = 102.5. Add the 40 points of armor, and we see that our monster needs to be able to generate 142.5 HPT to match the PCs combat power. Plug 142.5 into our formula, and we get 139 / 0.85 = MR 164 = 17 dice and 82 combat adds = average HPT of 141.5. This is really close to our desired HPT of 142.5.
To make things a little simpler, you can forget about subtracting the 3.5. It's not like we get an exact answer anyway. If we forget about the 3.5, our above calculations become as follows:
Well, this is just one approach. It's difficult when you don't know much about the PCs you're writing the adventure for. So you have to put some constraints on who the game is for. The more constraints you put on, the better able you are to come up with an MR that is a roughly equal challenge. But more constraints means excluding more PCs.
And you don't want all your MR-based monsters to be the same MR anyway. If you have an idea of the range of HPTs your monsters will need to generate in your solo to represent a decent challenge, you can use the formula MR = HPT / 0.85 to come up with ballpark figures for MRs that match the HPTs at either end of your range, and you can then create monsters with MRs in that range, and vary it up.
Hope this was helpful... <end>
If you're reading and don't want this here, please let me know.
Last Edit: Aug 16, 2006 16:04:24 GMT -5 by mahrundl
Post by Vin Ahrr Vin on Aug 17, 2006 7:02:51 GMT -5
Sadly, I have no idea how to back up a board and so nothing is archived. In fact, I realized that our post count dropped suddenly but didn't know where they had gone until Skathros tipped me off.
I communicated with Khaydhaik and got the sense that he was unhappy with some people and so he purged all of his own threads. I hope that this didn't happen on the TrollBridge, but I'm not really sure about the whole story. I doubt he lurks here any more because I think it's only open to "registered members" and he no longer appears on my list.
As I said, that's a shame because he has some great ideas and was one of our biggest contributors.
Vin Ahrr Vin Discovered T&T in 2003, Keeper of the TrollBridge Since 2005 OD&D Player since 1975
“Please feel free....to modify and improve these basic rules as your imagination dictates to be right for you." - Ken St.Andre, T&T 1E, 1976.
“Do not fail to notice [that] Vin's The Muad’Dib of T&T” - Ragnorakk
From what I know and guess, the Trollbridge probably wasn't the problem, or at least not to any substantial degree. It isn't something I've discussed with him recently, and it really isn't my place to say anyway, but I know that there were some issues that he wasn't happy about. Hopefully it is something that can be worked out and he will return to us at some point.
A pity about the backup situation. I guess that what I extracted a little while back is probably the best we have then? I don't have *everything*, but I grabbed text copies of most of the Trollbridge threads that were actually game related. I skipped some of the more off-topic stuff - I don't think that I copied the happy birthday type posts, for example. So, many of Khayd'haik's insights are still available.
I'll try to put these into a better format at some point - currently they are just unformatted text. I'll see if I can work out a means of doing automatic backups so that we store new stuff as well.