Hogscape is editor!

[mgtremaine]

yes you are sounding a bit paranoid. Hogscape is not "that guy" that is pretty clear, you can going back in the posts here and trollhalla and get a clear picture of that. The answer to your question of what is to stop "that guy" from stealing web content and publishing it is nothing. Seriously if someone wants to steal stuff and try to publish it the recourse we have is really only to educate the buyers to avoid such a publisher. Sorry you bought M6E and did not like it. I think as a community we are trying to keep the momentum going and if Hogscape is willing to be editor then bless his heart no one else decided to step up.

Again if you worry about it do not contribute, I would not go looking for malicious behavior we got enough of that in the world.

-Mike

[zanshin]

Fellgore I think you are way off base, I think Hogscape is a long term enthusiast for T&T and an excellent author in his own right. His GM adventures for T&T are not only the best such for T&T imo, but amongst the best of any game system.

I was also an enthusiastic proponent of "that company" and Hobbit Hole, as was Ken St Andre come to that, until we discovered he had been ripping artists (and others) off.

Mike Hill/Hogscape encouraged others to step forward as editor but took up the challenge when noone else would. He has already done a great edit job on the bits I have submitted.

The aim here is a free zine that will promote T&T and the Trollbridge, no more than that.

If Rick Loomis, or others create the space for us to submit our ideas and articles to, great, i would love that. Unfortunately Flying Buffalo has done hardly anything to promote or support T&T for a long time.

There is not much (if any) money to be made from T&T , the Trollzine is a matter of sharing something we love, and putting our own ideas forward.

[ProfGremlin]

I would say that in all my communications with Hogscape, on and off 'board, I have never even once had a hint of a negative feeling concerning him, his behaviors or motivations. This is in direct opposition to the one time I looked at buying the M6E from "that company". I had a repulsion from the "that company" site. Partly this had to do with using Paypal (I don't like the service) the rest, I don't know I just wasn't comfortable purchasing from there. I've learned to ignore these feelings to my own detriment over a lifetime. Keep in mind that this was several months before the "that company" and stolen artwork debacle. While I realize that the end result of my purchase via Lulu was the same as if I had used "that company" I felt much better about it.

I have found Hogscape to be an enthusiastic and indefatigable supporter of T&T. He thoroughly enjoys the game and was working via the established route for fans of sending submissions to "that company" for publication. If Hogscape is to be painted with a fiendish brush for doing so then the same must be applied to everyone else who tried working with "that company" to accomplish the same goal. I think that is unrealistic.

Fellgore, if I may be so bold, while I completely understand the emotion concerning seeing a single person 'in charge' of the Trollzine! project I believe you're jumping at shadows here. Without the fans here at the 'bridge there won't be any Trollzine! There has also been conversation concerning a 'statement of use' assuring submitters that material submitted to the Trollzine! won't appear elsewhere. I don't see any conversation on here but a few have discussed it in the Troll Bridge wave over on Google Wave. I believe the Fight On! statement of use is to be utilized as a template for this. From what I understand this is something that Mr. "that guy" never put into practice. To be honest, this statement of use goes a long way with making me a whole lot more comfortable with submitting articles to the Trollzine!

[ragnorakk]

I don't blame you for being paranoid. I didn't want to deal with OP (as a customer or a contributor) because of the bad vibes about copyright and general sh*tty attitude and such. And, yeah, the anonymity of the internet can allow for some really ugly sh*t, true - so I'd like to thank you for having the balls to make the post you've made fellgore - would have been much easier to remain silent or do so anonymously.

So maybe someday I'll rue the fact that I have a great deal of trust for Hogscape, but as it stands, I do. I feel sure that he & "that guy" are different individuals, and I also feel sure that Mike's interest is genuine. As I understand it M6E was mostly Mike's baby, so it doesn't seem untoward that he was 'pimping' it to some extent.

I hope that none of this continues to be paralyzing to you. In the end, there has to be a leap of faith (in the absence of face-to-face contact) that we are who we say we are (or at least aren't "that guy"). I can tell you that I'm not, but in the end, I'd have a hard time convincing you with any kind of proof. (BTW: I'm not!)

I can understand your suspicions, since HS was editing and such, and there's nothing I can say about that that isn't conjecture. But - if nothing else as regards the Trollzine - nobody's making any money from it.

Period.

So I have a hard time seeing where abuse or breach of trust will enter into it. Moreover, while Hogscape is editing, he's not alone and anyone that wants to take part in that side of things is certainly welcome to - it's important to try to keep this process as transparent as possible - if there's anything you can think of that would make you feel more comfortable, please let us know and hopefully it can be worked out.

Seriously - I do want to thank you again for your post. Looking back at what people had to say about OP's practices that p*ssed them off at the time, and noting that the doubts and troubles expressed at the time kinda fell flat was a disturbing thing to see in retrospect.

Jan 1, 2010 10:06:54 GMT -5 fellgore said:

OK, I'm going full on paranoid here. Or, to put in another way, are you people paranoid enough?

Has anyone noticed that Hogscape was the major proponent on this site for many OP products, perhaps most notably the Hobbit Hole and the Mythical sixth edition? His multiple posts talked me into purchasing this latter mid-grade product, before I figured out he wrote what was not stolen in it (and thus was at the very least guilty of a conflict of interest, pushing his house rules as T&T cannon). Actually at the time Rick Loomis wrote me it was not official, but since he (Rick) didn't even have his core rules available in any format, I bought M6E anyway. I later picked up (and now use) 7.5 at a local hobby shop. While I must say that my nearly 30 year old copy of the Fifth edition has superior writing, organization and editing (and art, but that's not fair, Danforth is expensive these days!) than either of the newer versions, that is not pertinent to my point. M6E was created without the copyright holder's permission (or the creator's (KSA) for that matter). As I understand it FBI (Rick) decided let them keep calling it official, as long as OP didn't do it again. That makes no sense to me, unless you translate it as "we can't afford to sue you right now, so please play nice in the future."

I think most everyone here now knows OP never played nice.

Check out your collection of HH. Page by page Mike Hill is credited with more writing than anyone, and is/was of course, editor. I don't know for certain that Mike is "that guy" but Mike was either a close conspirator in the malfeascance OP perpetrated, grossly ignorant, or "that guy" himself. I'm not even certain there was a functional editor for HH. I can think of two (of my six or seven issues) that have solos calling for a L1 SR on 10. From the context I know it is a SR on IQ, but really, these were obvious scans no one even took the time to proof read.

Why would you Trolls put him in charge of this new publication? Does anyone know who he is? When I used to order T&T material from OP the money went to Julia "that guy". Why not "that guy"? On the internet identity is often a game of smoke and mirrors, and I fear this may simply be a new twist (actually oldish, using an established name here) on ""that guy"'s" shifty practices.

Even if I am way off-base and Hogscape is an innocent enthusiast (if so I am sorry!), what is to stop "that guy" from taking free web content, as he has done before (with for instance Escape from Khosht) and stealing the sweat from the creator's brow?

I guess there is no answer to that, and the thought paralizes me.

I humbly look forward to either enlightenment or beheading.

[mahrundl]

Jan 1, 2010 10:06:54 GMT -5 fellgore said:

OK, I'm going full on paranoid here. Or, to put in another way, are you people paranoid enough?

Has anyone noticed that Hogscape was the major proponent on this site for many OP products, perhaps most notably the Hobbit Hole and the Mythical sixth edition? His multiple posts talked me into purchasing this latter mid-grade product, before I figured out he wrote what was not stolen in it (and thus was at the very least guilty of a conflict of interest, pushing his house rules as T&T cannon). Actually at the time Rick Loomis wrote me it was not official, but since he (Rick) didn't even have his core rules available in any format, I bought M6E anyway. I later picked up (and now use) 7.5 at a local hobby shop. While I must say that my nearly 30 year old copy of the Fifth edition has superior writing, organization and editing (and art, but that's not fair, Danforth is expensive these days!) than either of the newer versions, that is not pertinent to my point. M6E was created without the copyright holder's permission (or the creator's (KSA) for that matter). As I understand it FBI (Rick) decided let them keep calling it official, as long as OP didn't do it again. That makes no sense to me, unless you translate it as "we can't afford to sue you right now, so please play nice in the future."

I think most everyone here now knows OP never played nice.

Check out your collection of HH. Page by page Mike Hill is credited with more writing than anyone, and is/was of course, editor. I don't know for certain that Mike is "that guy" but Mike was either a close conspirator in the malfeascance OP perpetrated, grossly ignorant, or "that guy" himself. I'm not even certain there was a functional editor for HH. I can think of two (of my six or seven issues) that have solos calling for a L1 SR on 10. From the context I know it is a SR on IQ, but really, these were obvious scans no one even took the time to proof read.

Why would you Trolls put him in charge of this new publication? Does anyone know who he is? When I used to order T&T material from OP the money went to Julia "that guy". Why not "that guy"? On the internet identity is often a game of smoke and mirrors, and I fear this may simply be a new twist (actually oldish, using an established name here) on ""that guy"'s" shifty practices.

Even if I am way off-base and Hogscape is an innocent enthusiast (if so I am sorry!), what is to stop "that guy" from taking free web content, as he has done before (with for instance Escape from Khosht) and stealing the sweat from the creator's brow?

I guess there is no answer to that, and the thought paralizes me.

I humbly look forward to either enlightenment or beheading.

Fellgore,

Hogscape is not "that guy". Apart from anything else, he's an Australian, whereas James is in the US.

My understanding is that Hogscape did the work that he did for "that company" from love of the game. I don't think that he was paid for it (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong). Everything that I've seen from him here and elsewhere has been supportive of T & T and those working for it. Certainly in my dealings with him, I've never had any impression that he's looking to take advantage of people.

I hesitate to bring this up, because it's old history, but I think that it's relevant. Caveat: this all happened several years ago, so I may be mis-remembering some minor details, but the general gist of it is accurate.

I wrote up a treasure generator, available here, which ended up in issue 11 of The Hobbit Hole, as well as in M6E. The authorship of the entire article, including the treasure generation tables, was credited to Hogscape (as Mike Hill) in error.

Now, this didn't bother me that much. However, on realising the error, Hogscape arranged for the incorrect attributions to be changed in future printings, and went out of his way to provide me - unasked - with free copies of both publications by way of compensation / apology. I think that this is a good demonstration of his intentions and integrity.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on Hogscape's editing skills, other than to observe that the editor isn't always the one proof-reading the text. The issue of The Hobbit Hole mentioned above also has 3 Associate Editors listed, for example.

If you really feel that Hogscape is not the right person for the editor's job, suggest some alternatives. For example, would you be willing to do it, or to work as a co-editor with Hogscape?

What's to stop "that guy" or anyone else from taking the work of others and profiting from it? Not much, really - legal action might work, but beyond that, all that we can do is not buy any works that contain stolen material, and encourage others to do the same. If there's no market for a product, there's little incentive for someone to make that product.

In summary, while I can understand your concerns, and why you felt the need to raise them, I think that you are doing Hogscape a disservice. While there is always the possibility that I am being overly gullible, I suspect that your paranoia, as you describe it, is somewhat excessive in this case.

I hope that this counts as enlightening. Whether or not it does, I'm certainly not going to behead you for your post...

[kopf]

I think that you are making some valid points, but kind of fell off the tracks when you became concerned as to whether Mike Hill is who he says he is or not. Even if he was "that guy" he and those who support him would deny that he was.

It would have been more productive to try to get publicly-stated assurances that past mistakes would not reoccur.

Jan 1, 2010 10:06:54 GMT -5 fellgore said:

OK, I'm going full on paranoid here. Or, to put in another way, are you people paranoid enough?

Has anyone noticed that Hogscape was the major proponent on this site for many OP products, perhaps most notably the Hobbit Hole and the Mythical sixth edition? His multiple posts talked me into purchasing this latter mid-grade product, before I figured out he wrote what was not stolen in it (and thus was at the very least guilty of a conflict of interest, pushing his house rules as T&T cannon). Actually at the time Rick Loomis wrote me it was not official, but since he (Rick) didn't even have his core rules available in any format, I bought M6E anyway. I later picked up (and now use) 7.5 at a local hobby shop. While I must say that my nearly 30 year old copy of the Fifth edition has superior writing, organization and editing (and art, but that's not fair, Danforth is expensive these days!) than either of the newer versions, that is not pertinent to my point. M6E was created without the copyright holder's permission (or the creator's (KSA) for that matter). As I understand it FBI (Rick) decided let them keep calling it official, as long as OP didn't do it again. That makes no sense to me, unless you translate it as "we can't afford to sue you right now, so please play nice in the future."

I think most everyone here now knows OP never played nice.

Check out your collection of HH. Page by page Mike Hill is credited with more writing than anyone, and is/was of course, editor. I don't know for certain that Mike is "that guy" but Mike was either a close conspirator in the malfeascance OP perpetrated, grossly ignorant, or "that guy" himself. I'm not even certain there was a functional editor for HH. I can think of two (of my six or seven issues) that have solos calling for a L1 SR on 10. From the context I know it is a SR on IQ, but really, these were obvious scans no one even took the time to proof read.

Why would you Trolls put him in charge of this new publication? Does anyone know who he is? When I used to order T&T material from OP the money went to Julia "that guy". Why not "that guy"? On the internet identity is often a game of smoke and mirrors, and I fear this may simply be a new twist (actually oldish, using an established name here) on ""that guy"'s" shifty practices.

Even if I am way off-base and Hogscape is an innocent enthusiast (if so I am sorry!), what is to stop "that guy" from taking free web content, as he has done before (with for instance Escape from Khosht) and stealing the sweat from the creator's brow?

I guess there is no answer to that, and the thought paralizes me.

I humbly look forward to either enlightenment or beheading.

[quoghmyre]

A lot of people supported "that company" and it's publications, Ken, Boozer, and many others. Sure they could have all been a little more sceptical and I think they let their enthusiasm for being published and T&T colour there better judgement. Let's not point the bone.

These are the big differences:
1. What we are working on will be provided Free and we are not looking to make money or cover our costs.
2. The contributors retain ownership of their work.

I'm sure there are other differences, but there's 2 things that make our project different from "that company".

PS. I've been active in the T&T online community and I can assure you that Kopf is not "that guy". and neither is Hog, Boozer nor me...

[kopf]

I think everyone here can be assured that ""that guy" is not Kopf."

And if you have problems with anything "Kopf" says, all you have to do is resign from working with me.

Jan 2, 2010 17:11:57 GMT -5 quoghmyre said:

A lot of people supported "that company" and it's publications, Ken, Boozer, and many others. Sure they could have all been a little more sceptical and I think they let their enthusiasm for being published and T&T colour there better judgement. Let's not point the bone.

These are the big differences:
1. What we are working on will be provided Free and we are not looking to make money or cover our costs.
2. The contributors retain ownership of their work.

I'm sure there are other differences, but there's 2 things that make our project different from "that company".

PS. I've been active in the T&T online community and I can assure you that Kopf is not "that guy". and neither is Hog, Boozer nor me...

edited to have a comma.

[Hogscape]

Cripes. It's all getting very mysterious...

BTW, I only plan on being editor for the first issue of TrollZine, Quog has voluteered to do the layout work (and that is a lot of work), and other folks are contributing artwork (I hope) and material (definitely).

TZ was not my idea - it was Rag's.

Once TZ is complete and available, it remains the property of the contributors (for each individual submission) and the Trollbridge collectively.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, TZ is an attempt to make available some fan-created material to support the game we love so much. No one will make money out of this.

I was the editor of Hobbit Hole for many issues. BTW I didn't receive any payment for any of the work I did for OP. I did it because I (a) enjoyed it and (b) thought I was working towards promoting the game... As it turned out, OP upset a lot of people along the way.

I hope that no one has any further doubts or fears about the nature of TZ or my intentions. If so, I'll definitely pass on the editorial role to anyone else willing to have a crack. No hard feelings.

PS if someone would like to include some kind of 'contact' in the 'zine to ensure ownership of the material is retained by the contributor I'd be over the moon.

Thanks to everyone that suggested I'm not such a bad egg after all. I must confess, I didn't expect to get tarred with the OP brush but life takes a funny turn every now and then.

PS: In my original post I suggested another Troll as editor and that the editor would merely pick which articles would appear in the first issue - anything that didn't make the first cut would go to the next editor who may decide to insert earlier submissions into issue 2.

And finally, I'm not "that guy".

<Edit> and third PS: I don't think I've every made any secret of the fact that I wrote M6E, a number of people have spoken in favour of the book. Sorry you didn't like it Fellgor.

[kopf]

It is only getting mysterious because we are being asked to believe that you have not done the things that others are saying that you have done. Who cares if you're not who say you are? You do a lot of shady things. Are going to continue to use other people's ideas to publish your own works or not?

Jan 3, 2010 3:28:03 GMT -5 Hogscape said:

Cripes. It's all getting very mysterious...

BTW, I only plan on being editor for the first issue of TrollZine, Quog has voluteered to do the layout work (and that is a lot of work), and other folks are contributing artwork (I hope) and material (definitely).

TZ was not my idea - it was Rag's.

Once TZ is complete and available, it remains the property of the contributors (for each individual submission) and the Trollbridge collectively.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, TZ is an attempt to make available some fan-created material to support the game we love so much. No one will make money out of this.

I was the editor of Hobbit Hole for many issues. BTW I didn't receive any payment for any of the work I did for OP. I did it because I (a) enjoyed it and (b) thought I was working towards promoting the game... As it turned out, OP upset a lot of people along the way.

I hope that no one has any further doubts or fears about the nature of TZ or my intentions. If so, I'll definitely pass on the editorial role to anyone else willing to have a crack. No hard feelings.

PS if someone would like to include some kind of 'contact' in the 'zine to ensure ownership of the material is retained by the contributor I'd be over the moon.

Thanks to everyone that suggested I'm not such a bad egg after all. I must confess, I didn't expect to get tarred with the OP brush but life takes a funny turn every now and then.

PS: In my original post I suggested another Troll as editor and that the editor would merely pick which articles would appear in the first issue - anything that didn't make the first cut would go to the next editor who may decide to insert earlier submissions into issue 2.

And finally, I'm not "that guy".

[zanshin]

What shady things Kopf? Or are you just throwing mud?

[kopf]

Not exactly sure who I am speaking to here. One of many authors who seem to alternately speak authoritatively then actually be just someone speaking up.

Jan 3, 2010 3:39:37 GMT -5 zanshin said:

What shady things Kopf? Or are you just throwing mud?

[zanshin]

I'm Dan Prentice, I live in the uk, I wrote the random magic item generator article for Hobbit hole 14. I am zanshin on Trollhalla and RPG Net. If you want to check my independent existence , I teach Tang Sou Dao in Kent in the UK www.tangsoudao.com/contact_us.htm

Thats who is speaking.

[kopf]

Jan 3, 2010 5:27:27 GMT -5 zanshin said:

I'm Dan Prentice, I live in the uk, I wrote the random magic item generator article for Hobbit hole 14. I am zanshin on Trollhalla and RPG Net. If you want to check my independent existence , I teach Tang Sou Dao in Kent in the UK www.tangsoudao.com/contact_us.htm

Thats who is speaking.

Noted. And speaking for Mike Hill. Now how many more people do we have to have to have speking speaking for him before he speaks?

[zanshin]

I'm going to break my self imposed rule. I am not speaking for him, i am asking you what shady things?, as you have made such a remark. If you have genuine information share it with us, as you are clearly trying to deter us from working with him. Smears won't do that for me, you will have to present something more.