4th Edition D&D

[gamepunk26]

I have posited this to my players. We were running very slowly for awhile. Part of this had to do with several of the players not reading their rules for their classes and for combat. In a game where the combat is so detailed, it is a necessity for the players and GM to know the rules. I was very frustrated a couple of sessions ago due to my players not paying attention to the combats when it was not their turn and, as I mentioned, their lack of knowledge. I left that session and began plotting their characters deaths. During that session I had a bit of a meltdown and told them that if they wanted to play a boardgame I had several that did not require the hours of work that I had put into this D&D game and that if they were not going to carry their weight that I would end the game.

We have played two sessions since then and both have been better in terms of role-play and rules knowledge. The real issue with a game this dense is that the learning curve is very steep. A game of T&T can be taught to RPG noobs in 20 minutes and everyone can play with relative ease and confidence. I can run a session of T&T with little more than a plot hook and a few beers to get my imagination juices flowing. I really like D&D4. It is balanced, and fun, and tactical, and it has a great feel. However, you have to have a player group who is dedicated to learning most, if not all of the rules, and being very confident with them. There are some little tricks buried in the rules that can give players some great opportunties, but if they won't read the book, they will forever be at a loss. I still do prefer lighter games, but I really like this one so it will probably be my heavy game for years to come. I have several copies of T&T 6th ed, Savage Worlds, BFRPG, Labyrinth Lord, C&C, MSPE, and other to get my rules light game on when I get tired of this, but for now the D&D4 hard on is still raging.

[koraq]

I'd vastly prefer something like Rolemaster or Burning Wheel if I want a crunchier system.

[lionrampant]

Mmmmm.... Rolemaster....

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I loved various pieces of Rolemaster, but I never seemed to make it all come together in good order.

I always wished I could see a really good Rolemaster GM and group in play.

[castiglione]

If I want crunchy combat, I'd rather run TFT or Dark City Games's version of it since, like T & T, it can still be taught in a matter of minutes.

[koraq]

Rolemaster can be really fun. I really suggest to play it with a group that's committed to it, though. You will have all members of the group help out to make it run smoothly and some people just want their GM to "keep the game running". RM don't work that way.

Also, have you played some T&T you will have had exercise in adding and subtracting. It helps!

[lionrampant]

Jan 18, 2009 20:45:26 GMT -5 koraq said:

Rolemaster can be really fun. I really suggest to play it with a group that's committed to it, though. You will have all members of the group help out to make it run smoothly and some people just want their GM to "keep the game running". RM don't work that way.

This is true. RM can overwhelm a GM who has to do everything themselves, but it still my favorite "high crunch" system.

[uburoi]

I shrugged my (mental) shoulders and flipped through the books at Bunns&Noodle a few weeks back. Not bad, just not the D&D I'd really be excited about playing. (That, and finances at the moment preclude spending ANOTHER $50-some-odd on a new game system.)

I'd have preferred it if there was more back-compatibility, and from what I've seen on Teh Intarwebs it's pretty much good for fighting - and that's it, like a pen-and-paper version of Nethack only more limited.

I think I'll be sticking with T&T for now, supplemented with old-school goodness like Swords & Wizardry (swordsandwizardry.com/forum/index.php) and brown-book D&D PDFs.

[koraq]

Swords & Wizardry looks really nice!

[unclecranky]

I spent almost $5000 on D&D over the decades, and have nothing measureable to show for it. When I was playing, the rules kept changing. When the rules changed, it was always to limit something or another in the name of 'play balance' or some such nonsense. Level Advancement. Races. Character Classes. Everything got too limited, and I spent too much money, and have nothing to show for it but some battered books on a shelf. No group, because I can't afford another three or four hundred to buy the latest 'official rules'. No good characters, because the rules changes ordered them out of existence. No good mileu, because that was the eighth or ninth casualty-I played Planescape and Athas.
No, I don't play D&D, and I wouldn't care if they were offering it with a million dollars, even in this economy.

[uburoi]

Feb 18, 2009 16:41:33 GMT -5 unclecranky said:

No good mileu, because that was the eighth or ninth casualty-I played Planescape and Athas.

Argh, people keep mentioning Planescape and that's making me want to do Planescape: T&T! NOT ENUFF HOURS IN DAY TO BEGIN WITH DO NOT WANT

hell... maybe if I brew some REAL strong coffee and only sleep 3 hours a night for the next six months...

(The hallucinations I start to experience should be really good inspiration, by the way.)

[order99]

For the record uberoi-Masque of the Red Death runs REALLY well in MS&PE...

More coffee? ;D

[gamepunk26]

I am still enjoying my running D&D game, but I am having a hard time finding the Role playing part of RPG in it. I went to Strategicon last weekend and played some really incredible new games. As a result, my D&D game is giong to be retired for a bit. I want my group to flex their RP muscles a bit and then maybe return to D&D. I still think that D&D does what it does better than any other system.

[uburoi]

Found a copy of the D&D 4th Quickstart rules and skimmed them over (well, quickstart, after all ) and I have to say...


....eeeeeeeeeeyurrrrrrgh.

If I thought Magic: The Gathering had had a bad influence on 3rd Edition, 4th is a idjiyut bastidge son of World of Warcrap and M:tG. They actually specify when during the turn (the untap - oh, excuse me, the start of turn phase) you take recurring damage (ex. from standing in lava or some such). You also get regen effects then - so presumably if you forget to mark 'em off then, you're S.O.L. and your DM can laugh and go "neener neener". Oops, sorry, we've gone PAST THAT PHASE. What, you want to go back and change things and get all out of ORDER? What are you, some kinda frickin' ANARCHIST? (And if your DM forgets to remind you to mark off HP for that brimstone footbath? Ah well, he blew it, no takebacks, neener-neener back.)

Crits no longer do 2-3 times normal damage or have fun effects (c.f. vorpal sword), they just do max damage for that weapon, and you automatically crit every time you roll a natural 20. How nice.

And don't get me started on "healing surges" and "you don't actually die until you go to negative-half-your-HP". Oh, my, can't risk anyone getting HURT, now. Would you like the +3 foam boffer or the Comfy Cushion of Poking for this melee? Everyone heals all their HP in a 6-hour nap at the local "INN", just like Final Fantasy! Well, I suppose it makes sense, since the "point allocation" systems have taken over and making a character no longer takes a couple dice and the back of a Post-It but 2 or 3 hours and the mathematical skills of a tax preparer. Sure, that'll make you want to hold onto your twinked-out min-maxed carefully constructed flame-breathing dragonborn Paladin PC for awhile, I guess. (How long until it's your half-elf quarter-dragonborn quarter-otyugh flame breathing multiclassed paladin/thief rogue/cleric/shopkeeper with the paralyzing touch and psionic mind crush? "IT'S IN THE BOOK YOU GOTTA LET ME PLAY IT!")

Lookit the wizard! No more standing around in the back of the party trying to avoid melee with his 2 measly HP after he throws his one "sleep" for the day... nosirree, he can toss Magic Missiles until the cows minotaurs come home! Whee! And if he IS forced to blow his "Burning Hands", why 5 minutes of rest and he'll be fresh as a daisy. AND 23 HP at first level, mind you! Why, I know frickin' FIGHTERS back in the day that didn't have that at THIRD! (Yes, I know monsters have more HP in this version as well - so why the increase then?)

And "action points" (which you get when you reach save points - ahem, "milestones" in the DM's storyline (choo, choo, all aboard the plot express!))? "Interrupts" "triggered by specific powers" which can determine whether another "action" is "resolved" or not? Why just not call it "the stack" and get it over with?

THIS is the D&D I grew up with? This monstrosity of skill checks and modifiers? This live-action Squaresoft console RPG?

Remember when you could play D&D and didn't HAVE to shell out for Dungeon Tiles and minis 'cause everyone kept what was going on in their heads? Remember when you were expected to just make stuff up every now and then? Remember when you didn't have to have a rule or "modifier" for every possibility? Remember when you weren't even expected to know the freakin' RULES 'cause it was a imagination thing anyway and that was the GM's duty, to keep track of the numbers? Remember when a RPG could fit in a lil' floppy book that cost less than $10 'cause you didn't need full-color art and hardback hologram covers and equipment cards and all that flibberty-floo type of shinola?

I admit I bought Third Edition. I have a lot of stuff for it. I loves me some Scarred Lands; that'd be an interesting world to adapt for T&T. But Fourth? The H-E-double-pole-arms with it; I'd rather send the money to Flying Buffalo and "that company" and DriveThru RPG and have games I can have fun with and make stuff up for instead of a $200 set of miniature combat rules.

[unclecranky]

Uberoi: Maybe not Planescape, but something close... Talk to "that guy", Talk to Mahrundl, talk to me, let's see if we can get decent planes set up and running for T&T.