"Let the Wookiee win" mechanics

[gaptooth]

So, many of you know that I fell in with a Type IV D&D group at my local game shop-- the GM didn't show up, so I started running the game. We just completed Session 5 last night. At the end of Session 4, several of the players showed guarded interest in giving T&T a shot, and last night I brought in TT versions of their characters and I demoed some of the game concepts after our run, which met with some enthusiasm. Anyway, we're trying it out next time we meet.

Can't remember where, but I recently read advice to soften the risks when introducing players to a new game, and I think that's wise in this case. Type IV D&D starts characters off as pretty buffed up and seasoned adventurers, who can spend "healing surges" to recover between battles and recover all their hit points after an "extended rest". So here's what I'm thinking: I'll introduce the following house rules as temporary "training wheels" for the game, so they don't get themselves into a TPK in the first run:

• Any hit which reduces a delver to zero CON knocks her unconscious.
  
• No tracking negative hit points: Any hit that reduce a delver to less than zero hit points knocks her unconscious, at zero.
  
• Whenever an unconscious delver receives any successful healing, via first aid, physician skill, or magic, or something I can't think of right now, she will recover at least one hit point, and be ready to go again.
  
• An unconscious delver can be killed by any attack, but monsters will usually concentrate on the folks who are still standing before finishing people off.
  
• Flesh wounds: Anyone who survives a battle will recover 1d6 hit points. Their injuries weren't as bad as they seemed. Let the player narrate how the lucky acorn strung around her neck stopped the deadly arrow Tootles fired, or whatever. [Stole this idea from Sorcerer, which has pretty deadly combat.]
  

Maybe I would reduce the AP rewards for combat to 1/3 or 1/4, while these rules are in force. Does that sound commensurate?

---

Here are some thoughts about converting the characters: For the most part, it was remarkably easy. The ability scores of Type IV D&D characters are generated by a standard array, so I made my own standard array: 16, 14, 13, 11, 10, and 8. I then put them in order of priority expressed by existing character sheets. Whenever it seemed appropriate, I switched the Wisdom & Charisma scores when converting to Luck & Charisma. Then I applied Kin multipliers, giving the one Human a multiplier of 4/3 in one attribute. I used Hogscape's 4th-edition method to derive Power (which some people call WIZ) from IQ and CH.

Then I looked at the type of weapon each character used and gave them each the best weapon they could use of that type for their ability scores. Cleric wound up with a mitre instead of a mace, Thief wound up with Dirks, etc.

Speaking of Types, the Fighters converted to Warriors and the Wizard converted to a Wizard. My daughter plays the party Thief, and I gave her the choice between a Rogue (magic potential), or a Warrior with Burglar talent (better Adds), and she picked Warrior, which is closer to the D&D Thief's role. The Cleric could have been any Type, but I decided to make her a Paragon (Wizard-Warrior) with the Holy Pilgrim talent: I set all her abilities to 12 before multipliers.

The toughest part was deciding on a method for picking spells: In D&D the Wizard and Cleric have very different roles, which I didn't want to collapse. What I decided on was to give the Wizard and Paragon each 10 spells. The Wizard got only spells from the core rules (v7.5), and for the Paragon I picked mostly spells from the Codex Incantatem that corresponded with her speciality.

The 7th edition rules allow characters to learn and cast any spell they can their ability scores will allow, at a higher casting cost, so I'm thinking about letting the Paragon start with Poor Baby, at a casting cost of 3 per hit healed. Is that the correct way to raise the cost in the case of Poor Baby?

Here are the spells for each:

Berrian: Wizard

Level 1 Spells

• Detect Magic 0
  
• Hocus Focus 5(4)
  
• Knock Knock 3(2)
  
• Lock Tight 3(2)
  
• [Panic] Oh Go Away 5(4)
  
• Oh There It Is 4(3)
  
• Take That You Fiend 6(5)
  
• Teacher [Cost+Level]
  
• Vorpal Blade 5(4)
  
• Will-o-wisp 2(1)

Sola: Paragon

Level 1 Spells

• Alarum 4(3)
  
• Detect Magic 0
  
• Hello Sunshine 1
  
• Hocus Focus 5(4)
  
• Hold That Pose 4(3)
  
• Impress Idea 6(5)
  
• Know Your Foe 5(4)
  
• Power Strike 5(4)
  
• You Clot 1

Level 2 Spells

• Poor Baby 3:1

[zanshin]

I would leave the cost of poor Baby as is , just for less confusion when they get their own version of the rules (they may). If healing is more available you can push the bounds more with the encounters.

Nice job of converting people and systems.

PS 'I know Kung Fu' in TrollsZine 2 was my attempt to spice up warriors options a bit. What do you/might your players think of that system?

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

If your players want more tactical options don't forget to push the "Combat Saving Rolls".

The ability to perform special attacks and "Stunts" without onerous rules that take forever to work or roll out should impress.

If they want to jump on a table and leap over their foes blades and strike them from behind a quick Combat SR on Agility ( at whatever level you find appropriate ) should make what would have taken forty minutes ( if even possible ) in D&D the work of a quick roll.

Tackling (STR), tripping (Agility or SPD), shield hooking ( Agility or STR ), maneuvering the opponent into a disadvantageous position ( A SR on the foes IQ ) dirty tricks (sand in the eyes, thrown mugs of ale, grease on the floor), T&T can be a wonderland for an imaginative player! ;D

P.S. Remember with spells like Vorpal Blade, Little Feets, Whammy & Double-Double T&T was the first system that let wizard or other magic users "Buff" their companions for combat. ;D

[mahrundl]

Nov 18, 2010 13:49:05 GMT -5 gaptooth said:

So, many of you know that I fell in with a Type IV D&D group at my local game shop

I keep reading that as 'I fell in with a Type IV demon group...' ;D

[gaptooth]

Okay, this week my D&D group wants to run Tunnels & Trolls. We're already in the middle of an adventure, and we don't want to ditch their characters or current story. That's why I created T&T doppelgängers of their characters.

Converting the monsters and stuff from the adventure module we're running was a snap. Kobold Quickblades? MR 24. Kobold Wyrmpriest who can inspire his allies with Ice Orb action? Give him 36 MR with the spell Freeze Please and a chance to cast Vorpal Blade on an ally if he rolls 1 Spite-- and 36 "Wiz" for good measure.

My only question is what to do with these full-color battle mats that came with the adventure. Type IV D&D pretty much requires battle maps, but T&T lacks movement rules that using a map provokes. Here are some of the options I can think of:

• Keep the maps folded up and just use the old imagination to frame everything.
  
• Roll out the maps for show, just to point at stuff as we talk about what's happening.
  
• Use the maps and place tokens for the delvers and their foes. Let everyone move wherever they want between combat rounds, unless there is some kind of obstacle or opposition, and then use a Saving Roll to resolve the movement. Er, but who moves when?
  
• Use something like the mini movement rules published by Aramis: Move between combat rounds, and the winner of each round determines who goes when.
  
• Use something like the movement rules in the 7e Revised alternate rules, which even has initiative based on Dexterity, and separate segments for movement, actions, and melee.

I've used dungeon tiles and tokens before in my games with the kids, without having any rules for movement, and we've had plenty of fun-- we ran Hogscape's entire Dungeon of the Rat that way.

But that game and group didn't start out with modern D&D as a precedent. My concern with putting too much emphasis on the grid is that it will bring unnecessary baggage into the game. Good tactics in T&T aren't based on positioning tokens on a grid, but on involvement in the fiction.

On the other hand, the map offers a lot of visually interesting detail that could work its way into involved fiction, and even a little atmosphere.

Do you have experience running T&T with maps and/or minis? What has worked best in your games?

Nov 19, 2010 7:21:21 GMT -5 zanshin said:

I would leave the cost of poor Baby as is , just for less confusion when they get their own version of the rules (they may). If healing is more available you can push the bounds more with the encounters.

I thought that it was a rule that the cost of casting higher-level spells goes up at the same rate that casting lower-level spells goes down, but I can't find it in the rules now that I'm looking for it-- perhaps I read it in an errata. Anyway, your point about making healing more available is a good one, and the required Level 2 SR on IQ to cast Poor Baby may be challenge enough!

Nov 19, 2010 7:21:21 GMT -5 zanshin said:

Nice job of converting people and systems.

PS 'I know Kung Fu' in TrollsZine 2 was my attempt to spice up warriors options a bit. What do you/might your players think of that system?

My eye has turned that way a few times in the past few weeks, and it's very appealing. My first thought was to make much of combat Saving Rolls, like what TKD was saying. The combat stunts article I submitted for TZ4 has gotten a lot of play-testing and revisions, and my idea was to list one or two "favored tactics" for each character.

The "favored tactics" wouldn't limit anyone from trying something not on the list, but could spur other ideas, and hopefully teach principles of creative play. The advantage of your stunt system is that the special effects manifest as extras rather than requiring elaborate forethought. Coming up with a desperate Saving Roll under pressure can be difficult, and may require lucky rolls to accomplish; the weapon techniques, by contrast, are triggered by lucky rolls, without premeditation. It reminds me of the stunt mechanic in Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG. I'm still thinking about it, and I'll give the TZ2 stunts another read-through tomorrow.

[zanshin]

I thought that it was a rule that the cost of casting higher-level spells goes up at the same rate that casting lower-level spells goes down, but I can't find it in the rules now that I'm looking for it-- perhaps I read it in an errata. Anyway, your point about making healing more available is a good one, and the required Level 2 SR on IQ to cast Poor Baby may be challenge enough!

I think Poor Baby is one of T&T's (many) exceptions - you don't increase the level to increase the healing, you just spend more strength. There is normally an optimum casting point for poor Baby depending on the Wizards level - a Level 3 Wizard can heal 3 points of damage for 2 strength points for example (with a focus). Thats how I have always played it anyway. The point of casting higher level ones in combat is the 'action economy'.

I mostly find that it gets cast out of combat anyway.

[Aramis of Erak]

I've done the maps thing in the past with T&T... it's based in the computer game's handling:

movement of 1+(Spd/5) (round up) 5' squares per turn without impinging upon combat or casting. Additional spaces prevent attack, but run to 3x spd squares...

[gaptooth]

Thanks for the feedback folks! Here's what I'm bringing to tonight's game:

• I made some minor changes to Sola's spell list: She can cast Poor Baby with no cost increase (2:1), and I dropped You Clot. I gave them both ten "spell slots", counting Poor Baby as two "slots" since it's a level 2 spell.
  
• Berrian's spell list is the same as above.
  
• I gave each Warrior one Weapon Technique from Dan's "I Know Kung Fu" article: The axe-laden dwarf got Vicious Strike; I gave the human warrior Cutting Blow. The hobbit "thief" got Disarm for his dagger. I'll encourage them to try other stunts, but having the Weapon Techniques triggered by spite will provide scope for pleasant surprises.
  
• I decided to handle movement between combat rounds, and I'll just keep D&D's default movement rate of 30' (6 squares) for everyone. They can try other stunts between rounds too.
  
• For movement order, I'll just have each side roll a die at the beginning of combat and allow the winner to choose which side goes first. After that, whoever wins the combat round gets to choose. If there's any question of order within a side, I'll go with Speed.
  
• I added some more goodies to the adventure module, taking advantage of T&T's ease of customization. For example, one of the listed rewards is a "level 5 suit of magic armor"-- not sure what that means. I made it a suit of Heavy Plate armor (20 hits) that is light (min ST 12) and the wearer can withstand dragon breath, with a separate Dwarven Spike Shield.
  

That's all I can think of right now. We play tonight.

[zanshin]

Sounds cool, I hope you have a good time!

I'll be interested to hear how the 'secret weapon techniques' go down with your players.

[gaptooth]

The WINS: Everyone dug the faster pace of combat, and mostly I think people found their characters to be way more effective than their D&D counterparts (even with the lower hit points, which a few people kvetched about). Without the wiff factor that comes with rolling to hit every round, they got to hew through a bunch of bad guys and see the increasing returns of damage as their Monster-Rated foes lost Adds.

The FAILS: The big fail was that my interpretation of the cleric didn't appeal to the player at all. Conscientious as I thought I was, I overlooked the features that the player really liked, and picked spells that I thought she would like instead. At first, I took it to be tiredness, but by the end of the session it was clear that the ability scores, weapon, and spells didn't sync with her concept of the character. Now I can see how it must seem like I nerfed the cleric. I think this is easily resolved, if that's the main problem, and she is still willing to play.

I have several gleanings from the night, and I might write more about that later. My impression was that the majority of the players enjoyed the session and the unique benefits of running it under the T&T rubric. But I'm not keen to repeat my mistakes, and I hope I hear back from the player who was dissatisfied with my unfortunate conversion choices.

[gaptooth]

Dec 1, 2010 17:04:40 GMT -5 zanshin said:

Sounds cool, I hope you have a good time!

Thanks!

Dec 1, 2010 17:04:40 GMT -5 zanshin said:

I'll be interested to hear how the 'secret weapon techniques' go down with your players.

I explained each of the techniques to each player before hand, and they were very interested. Only Vicious Strike came up in play though-- with a 6d weapon, it's hard not to get at least one hit of spite every turn. The other weapon techniques triggered on 3 spite for the 5-die sword, and 2 spite for a 2-die dagger, so I'm not surprised that we didn't see those feats this session.

[kesher]

Wow, what a great bit of work! I like reading Type IV stuff, but have no interest in playing it at all, so it's really cool to see how you translated characters and miscellanea. Be Thou Exalted!

[gaptooth]

I thought I should update this thread with the results. We played two consecutive, full sessions of T&T using the characters converted from Type IV D&D. Then we decided to go back to Dungeons & Dragons because one player thought her character concept was nerfed by the T&T rules. Since we don't have time to meet up and kibitz about the game outside of game night, it was easier to go back to the familiar.

I still think Tunnels & Trolls might be a good fit for this group, but it was a bad idea to try to jump rails to a different game in mid-adventure, when everyone was just getting acclimated to how the game worked and what there characters could do. Even though they all expressed curiosity and enthusiasm to give T&T a shot, it was unwise to use the characters they knew and understood to introduce new mechanics. Especially when the way combat and powers work in T&T is so different than the way they work in 4th Edition D&D, and the character resources in each game are designed to solve different kinds of problems.

From a majority perspective, I think T&T was a hit, but I'm cautious about alienating a player who contributes a lot to the game and to everyone's enjoyment. Since the experiment showed that there wasn't as strong a consensus to switch games as I thought, I think it would be boorish to argue T&T's merits and the advantages of her T&T character. Our limited time is better spent playing a game we can enjoy.

Once the current adventure concludes, there may be another chance to try T&T. Giving the players a chance to create there own characters and make all the relevant ability, talent, spell, resource, and characterization choices offers scope for stronger buy-in than when a well-meaning GM makes those selections.