I'm currently in a "Rippers" campaign in my group at the office where I work. We tried T&T and most of them didn't really care for it. When we're done with Rippers, we'll be doing a future campaign that I'm designing - also in the SW ruleset.
Wanted very much to like it. Tried it. Disliked by everyone. Strongly.
All these years and I still haven't seen a satisfactory explanation of the Shaken condition in play. Oh, mechanically I understand it. But 'getting it' and having it work in play at all? Completely different. Characters were constantly 'stuck' being Shaken and then, having been released from the condition via rolling a raise for...whatever roll it is...or spending a benny, could do nothing else that round and then would proceed to be hit and Shaken again.
Also, I'm no fan of two or three rolls for one thing in a combat. That doesn't quite translate to "Fast! Fun! Furious!" for me. Fast? Roll to attack, now...how good was the roll? Was it high enough? Oh. Ok. How much higher is it? Like, how much over the target number? How ever many of those 'group' of numbers over the TN will influence the rest. Now roll damage. Only, you're not rolling damage. You're rolling to see how much over another number this roll will be and then that will be the guide to...to how much damage?...no...to how the target is effected. Now that the PC or beastie has been hit, is it Shaken, or Wounded or both? Then it gets to roll to become unshaken, then possibly to soak the damage.
Boy. That was fast. Wut?
It's a solid game and it's very well designed. But I have to take issue with it's and it's fan's claiming that it's easy and quick. Perhaps compared to Hero System or D&D 3.5. I was under the mistaken impression it was rules-lite. It's most certainly not. In fact, it's deceptively rules-heavy (for my taste anyway).
Every few months or more I pull out the Explorer's Edition to see if I'm missing some golden thing, but no joy. It's just no for me I guess. Pity, too in a way. The SW community is full of cool and fun-loving and helpful folks.
"Hold off thy hands, or by Heaven I'll make a ghost of him that lets me!" - Hamlet
It took us a while to get through the difference between aces and raises, and when you can and can't use bennies. Gotta admit I still prefer the abstract combat system in T&T for speed, though long, drawn-out combats can get a get boring in T&T if you're not careful. A lot depends upon the GM and how he (or she) paces the game and role-plays the combat. This can be true of any combat simulator mechanic (D&D, SW, ShadowRun, T&T, whatever).
Being good at math, I tend to overlook the difficulties others seem to have when it comes to the calculations. While my brain usually figures it out almost instantly, I have to suppress the cringe when someone pulls out a calculator to figure out how many raises over the target or totals dice or subtracts hitpoints. (I wonder how some of these people keep their checkbook balanced, but from what I understand, most people don't - they rely on what the bank tells them and nothing more!)
Anyway, when you consider the combat round in SW is 6 seconds, the "shaken" mechanic really does make sense. You can't translate it into T&T combat round terms. At the same time, in a T&T battle, it's hard for some people to get their mind around the idea that while one character is doing hundreds of points of damage and others aren't doing much at all, his "victim" isn't getting hurt because the monster's total was higher than the PC's.
Point being - unless you create a detailed second-by-second combat simulator, with a rule book exceeding several thousand pages, no game's combat system will ever be perfect.
Love the game for short term play! Awesome for running one of the many good settings/adventure paths. The shaken thing confused us for a bit and the raise issue was strange till we used it a lot in play.
Now I just steal from it for my T&T game. I would play it again though for the right setting/adventure,
Wanted very much to like it. Tried it. Disliked by everyone. Strongly.
My experience as well. I own the rulebooks and several camapign settings (especially the Solomon Kane one!) and had always heard how cool the game is, but absolutely disliked it when I played it. I'm keeping the setting books because they are so neat, but I doubt I'll ever try SW again.
Vin Ahrr Vin Discovered T&T in 2003, Keeper of the TrollBridge Since 2005 OD&D Player since 1975
“Please feel free....to modify and improve these basic rules as your imagination dictates to be right for you." - Ken St.Andre, T&T 1E, 1976.
“Do not fail to notice [that] Vin's The Muad’Dib of T&T” - Ragnorakk
Post by monstermike on Apr 22, 2011 11:14:59 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the good input. I think I'm still going to blow the $10 for the explorer's kit and look it over to decide for myself. But I can just as easily run my weird west adventure as a T&T game.
I'm jumpin' in here way late. Savage World is pretty fast to run. It becomes more apparent as the number of combatants increases. IMO, the use of playing cards for determining initiative contributes here.
At my table shaken means that you're discombobulated/swinging in all the wrong places/lightheaded or whatever fits the specifics of the context in which it happened.
The exploding dice is not lazy game design it's a feature of the game's design intent. This feature alone has contributed to epic moments at my game table.
I haven't found starting characters weak at all. In fact, I'd probably rate them a tad on the tough side when factoring in bennies. Speaking of bennies, hand them out like crazy. They mitigate the Shaken result which means that PCs will be able to shrug them off while taking the fight to the bad guys.
All that being said, I don't run it as often as I used to. Really what it comes down to is this, does its design intent fit what I have in mind and the players who will be rolling the dice? Pretty much the same question that I ask about any other game.
PS. Mini Six rocks hard.
Last Edit: May 17, 2011 16:19:51 GMT -5 by eisenmann
I've tried to get this off the ground about a dozen times or more.
I really don't like the exploding die rule, it's lazy game design and it really doesn't work. A skill level of d4 is better than d6 - it's counter intuitive.
Thanks for giving me your take on the game - I have to agree I have some qualms about the Shaken status. However, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement above. Although it's true that you are more likely to roll an "Ace" with a d4 than a d6, it does not follow that having a d4 skill is better than having a d6 (or higher dX) skill.
If you consider the normal target number of 4 to make a successful skill or attribute check, you have a 75% of failure with a d4, but only a 50% chance of failure with a d6.
In terms of your chances of getting a "Raise" - i.e. making a target number of 8 or better, you have a 6.3% chance with a d4 and a 13.9% chance with a d6.
Here's your chances to fail, succeed, and raise for different dX given a target number of 4.
d4: 75% (F) 18.75% (S) 6.25% (R) d6: 50% (F) 36.1% (S) 13.9% (R) d8: 37.5% (F) 50% (S) 12.5% (R) d10: 30% (F) 40% (S) 30% (R) d12: 25% (F) 33.3% (S) 41.7% (R)
It is interesting that you have a slightly better chance of making a raise with a d6 than with a d8, but I would still prefer the d8 over the d6 for a skill since the chance of failure is so much lower.
The author, Charles Green was a roommate of mine in grad school (Master of Fine Arts in writing). Genre writers, game writers at such programs get as much respect as kazoo players in symphony orchestras. You go through a trial by fire like that and keep writing, you're either d**n good or a mess. He's the former.
Mosker/M'oskqorrg/Oh hell, it's all about me, Dave Moskowitz
Post by Aramis of Erak on Nov 9, 2013 17:07:19 GMT -5
I found the SW engine too random. As a battle system, it's pretty good. As an RPG, not so much.
Oh, one thing that helps it a lot: instead of "roll attribute or skill" roll both, keep the better, with wild cards then rolling three dice and keeping one. This makes skill and attribute both matter a LOT more.
But it also moves it a lot towards Cortex Plus in tone.
Sorry the necro this thread, but I'm starting a SW Supers campaign. I've read through the above and it was very helpful, but does anyone else have any tips on GMing a SW game, or a supers game, first time GMing either.