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Post by ragnorakk on Aug 20, 2011 10:17:38 GMT -5
Gaptooth, people have been trying to reason with the person who sent the letter in for years. It does not work. Vin needs to protect the Bridge. If we sat around and posted threads about Kevin Bacon being a jerk, and Kevin Bacon's "people" contacted Vin with threats of lawsuit - those threads would likely be pulled. The person-not-named (I refer to him as the 'doom of t&t') will use merely the existence of the legal system to his advantage. The conversation on this topic continues elsewhere.
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Post by gaptooth on Aug 20, 2011 10:47:56 GMT -5
Ragnorakk, I wasn't referring to James Shipman at all in my previous message, and I didn't suggest that we should attempt to influence him. What I was saying is that we can reason together, meaning thee and me and Vin and the other people here who have shown themselves to be principled and trustworthy.
For the record, I don't think we should be defaming anyone on the forum, regardless of whether or not they threaten legal action. I think the moderators should warn people about libel, and even close threads or ban people if necessary, after clear and consistent communication of the site's content standards.
However, I think programatically editing all previous posts is a very bad move. Everything I've written here, I've written with goodwill. I usually choose my words carefully for meaning. I post with the trust that if I make a mistake or transgress a boundary, the people who run this place and make it awesome will let me know with the same goodwill. If the ideas I publish here can be arbitrarily rewritten into meaningless babel, at any time without warning, the care I take in the selection of my words becomes moot, and my goodwill is undermined.
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Post by ragnorakk on Aug 20, 2011 11:30:35 GMT -5
However, I think programatically editing all previous posts is a very bad move. Everything I've written here, I've written with goodwill. I usually choose my words carefully for meaning. I post with the trust that if I make a mistake or transgress a boundary, the people who run this place and make it awesome will let me know with the same goodwill. If the ideas I publish here can be arbitrarily rewritten into meaningless babel, at any time without warning, the care I take in the selection of my words becomes moot, and my goodwill is undermined. I understand and empathize with you on this point particularly. I have seen people leave boards and have been tempted to over this issue before (not here BTW). I have always appreciated your conversations here and I think that as a community we can be and are 'self-correcting' (in a good way). The current (imposed) circumstances are exceptional, and there is no perfect solution. |
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Aug 20, 2011 12:12:33 GMT -5
The best protection for the bridge is a judge telling the jerk he's full of feces.
The scurrilous furfoot is TRYING TO CONTROL the bridge.
And, no offense, but Vin, you've fallen for it.
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Post by ragnorakk on Aug 20, 2011 12:55:48 GMT -5
The scurrilous furfoot is TRYING TO CONTROL the bridge. Yep. Pretty monstrous. Amazing that threads on the virtues of DARO and Trollworld histories can be so offensive to some people... oh it's not those threads?  |
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Post by Vin Ahrr Vin on Aug 20, 2011 16:09:14 GMT -5
However, I think programatically editing all previous posts is a very bad move. I'm not totally thrilled with it, either. My intent is not to take your carefully chosen words and stomp on them, and I try not to take editorial changes lightly. The key is that: 1. No actual content has changed. If situations later warrent, I can toggle the censor back and it should restore exactly what was posted. 2. If nothing else, making a quick censor change allowed me to make board changes without having to do a laborous search to find anything objectionable. Saved me a lot of time and hassle. |
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Post by Billiam Babble on Aug 20, 2011 17:58:27 GMT -5
Curiously interesting dilemmas.
Getting back to the function (that's function with a capital "fun") does TnT6 have any support forums for it's fans? - Does the that publisher provide such a service? is their a fanbase without a voice?
Can a discussion be had about that edition without fear of appearing disloyal to other publishers?
My understanding of most legal situations was that even defamation has to be linked with a loss of earnings. How can an non-affiliated independent proboards fan forum be a threat? Apart from the odd Amazon search, I only ever come across this company in discussions here - it's practically free advertising.
I guess it's important to respect the wishes of all publishers, but communities have to maintain themselves.
I think if I was in Vinn's shoes I'd have to be sympathetic but firm in response to the request, but see it only as a request, whilst also asking posters to respect companies to a point, regardless of history. However, in the case of many companies and competitors (like WotC) the hobby's communities have the right to be upset and respond to perceived injustices, because it can be a community as a whole which can be effected by availability of products. So maybe kangeroo courts should be avoided, but an awareness of company splits and rivalry can be a really interesting part of the hobby as it effects future products and edition support.
Making that company "taboo" may just make things worse.
Or as mentioned earlier, should this forum just accept that it is mainly loyal to KsA and Flying Buffalo?
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Post by Billiam Babble on Aug 20, 2011 18:12:19 GMT -5
P.S. I genuinely love this forum, because there's so much interesting stuff to read, from personal experiences to practical resources. That's all the love you'll get out of me for one evening.  |
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 20, 2011 18:29:17 GMT -5
Hm. Giving into a worm of a bully. Awesome.
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Post by gaptooth on Aug 21, 2011 0:28:23 GMT -5
The key is that: 1. No actual content has changed. If situations later warrent, I can toggle the censor back and it should restore exactly what was posted. I appreciate that, Vin. While I disagree strongly with taking these measures in response to bullying, I have no doubt about your goodwill, and I'm very grateful for all you do.
What I think is needed is for all of us, but especially the moderators, to develop a more mature understanding of libel and a stronger grasp of what kinds of threats have legal merit. Then we can take a principled stand against posts on the board that cross a legitimate line, and we can also take a principled stand against bullying by opportunists who want us to capitulate to their bogus demands. If the posts aren't libel (or some other form of criminal behavior), there are no grounds for legal action. In reply to Ragnorrak's Kevin Bacon parable: Celebrities and other companies make spurious takedown demands ALL THE TIME. Just because someone drafts a threatening letter doesn't mean their demands have any merit-- even if it comes from a lawyer. Capitulating to such demands without examining their merit is a mistake. To make a habit of honoring such demands is unprincipled, intellectually lazy, and cowardly. I imagine that Vin looked into Jim's claims and found some merit in them-- I haven't been following the threads that were deleted, so I don't know what content cropped up. Saying that someone is an as shole is totally legal. Calling someone a criminal is not. I don't favor name-calling, but it would be wise for the members and moderators here to take this as a learning opportunity. My hope is that this event and the discussions that follow will make us wiser and more principled. |
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Sept 2, 2011 8:42:34 GMT -5
Cripes.
Just when you think A Certain Dubious Hobb can't get much lower.
You guys might want to know - I don't know if this has been pointed out already, but That Guy has a bunch of free downloads on his latest site (outl*wpr*ssinc.com/Free.html) including "Barony of Sanris", "No Rest For The Weary At War", and "Dark Side Of The Desert", which he's "hosting" from his own server. No link to the originals, of course. And he's got Ken's "DewDrop Inn" and "Deathtrap Equalizer" up as well, claiming they "can be found FREE on the web".
I hate to throw a can of gas on the fire at a time like this, what with threats of lawsuits and general clusterfun... but, yep, he's still at it.
HOLY FLIBBETY-FLOO, I just was lookin' around the rest of That Site and what do I find but a set of rules with this copy:
"Have you ever wanted a core set of Solo Combat Rules that you could use in your own solo without having the hassle of dealing with big RPG companies? Who says they won't change their mind about you using their rules in the future? It happens all of the time. If they don't like you or your solo, they could easily revoke their permission. Why deal with that? You never need to go through that trouble again. The d12 Solo Combat Rules are licensed directly to you when you purchase this download. Simply add the line into your solo: "d12 Solo Combat Rules, Copyright © 2011 By Pyramid Games". "
And who is "Pyramid"?
"Pyramid Games is a fully owned (UK based) subsidiary of [You-Know-Who-Press] Inc."
Yes, that's That Guy's problem - people don't like him. I wonder why that could be.
JEEZUL.
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dekh
5th Level Troll
dekh by Grumlahk
Posts: 622
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Post by dekh on Sept 2, 2011 12:08:31 GMT -5
Would this be a breach of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution?
I believe there is nothing to be concerned with, but I'm not a lawyer.
The last thing I'd want to happen if I'd been stealing art and stealing other peoples written work, and making money out of it, and depriving the IP holders of income, is to be sueing somebody in court for simply discussing my misdemeanors.
Of course if I never published material that I had no right to and had been accused of using peoples artwork without permission and selling it on the open market, then I'd be rightly upset.
Your board Vin, you protect yourself. It won't stop me coming here.
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Post by mgtremaine on Sept 2, 2011 14:52:06 GMT -5
I haven't comment on this so far but I guess I feel I should.
1) He was embolden as soon as the change was made here. All the Free stuff went back up. We all know what kind of person we are dealing with and we know that he is not going to leave Tunnels and Trolls alone as he was asked to do by Rick and Ken.
2) Libel in the US is ruled that "Truth is always an absolute defense against a defamation suit in the United States." So he is bluffing and he knows it.
I do agree we should not link to his site nor give him any free press. However those who are being infringed upon should not give up. Today I wrote to RPGNOW to point out the download section of his website. Since he could only have gotten some of those things from them and then he turned them into DOC files it means willful redistribution of copyrighted material and tampering with the watermarks probably makes it even more criminal.
Those are my thoughts on the matter.
-Mike
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dekh
5th Level Troll
dekh by Grumlahk
Posts: 622
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Post by dekh on Sept 2, 2011 17:21:55 GMT -5
Hi Mike, On other matters... I've kind of had tacit approval from Liz to put up the Troll Talks from 8 and 9/10 so I hope to be able to publish them soon. Any chance you have the remaining issues for me? Cheers -dekh  |
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Post by mgtremaine on Sept 2, 2011 17:53:50 GMT -5
I'll send them your way shortly. -Mike |
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