Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 7, 2007 14:09:24 GMT -5
Gwindel, I just tried to read my previous reply and I couldn't make any sense of it at all, so I doubt anybody else could! The short version of it is, my players kept dying when using 2d6. I reduced the level of difficulty but they still kept dying... even when they had attributes higher than the difficulty, they still kept dying (by not making the minimum five). Understand, I hate when characters die. I have all kinds of House Rules to stop death from occuring. Characters should only die by player choice, because it's a major turning point for the story or game, or because the player no longer wants to play that character and feels a heroic end would suit him. I had already switched up to 2d10 (or 2d12) while playing the solo modules, because I got tired of dying all the time, and found that the higher-sided dice gave higher results and I actually survived solo modules occasionally. So, I decided to try it in multi-player gameplay. So far, it's worked out very well and has given a range of success that works well for me. The only thing I don't like about it is that, not accounting for doubles, 2d10 gives a range of 2-20. Right now, the Great Big RPG uses a range of 1-20. Basically, I've turned T&T into a d20 game! But, to be fair, I did this two decades (2d10 years!) before "The D20 System" came into being, so maybe they copied off of me! (Seriously joking here, folks!) Anyway, I've been considering switching to 2d12 just so there's not so much similarity between my game and D20 System. Besides, I would like the even-higher potential ranges, the even-more reduced fumbles, and mostly, I have some weird d12 fetish, anyway... I just love those crazy 12-siders!
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Dec 8, 2007 9:16:31 GMT -5
I can understand your feelings; under a sometimes funny outlook and a high powered fantasy style, T&T can be quite murderous (and solos probably more so). I am afraid it is one of the main game attraction for me (and I play MSPE which is even more deadly, because of lower stats) and one of the reasons I'll never play AD&D. One of my reality tests to check if a game fits what I want is taking the maximum damage from the most common weapon (let's say a broadsword in fantasy and a .45 with moderns) and see if it kills a normal character in one shot. If it doesn't, the game is not what I am looking for. And the same is true with SRs; if the characters want to heroically try something that looks like they have only 1 chance in 10 to succeed at, they should not blame me for the 9 other occcurences. But, of course, that's a style of play and highly subjective (and I admit, it has a big influence on the players behaviour). What I didn't understand in your post was not that you want to keep your characters alive for story reasons, that's another way to play and I can see why you prefer it that way. But I thought that going from D6s to D10s doesn't make a very big change in probabilities (as I said +4 on average, less than one SR or a number that a character can add to a stat very quickly with experience). Which seems to fall a little short of what you are aiming for, whilst changing one of the basic things of T&T (like crushing a mosquito with a bazooka). Of course, there is still the 5 minimum needed, but it only amounts (more or less, given the doubles re-rolls) to one in 9 with D6s and 1 in 25 with D10s. But it is also possible to decrease the minimum needed to 4. And also, you can always rule that some SRs are automatically passed if the character has a high level enough stat (there was a game, Dragon Warriors I think, where you didn't checked if your stat was more than the difficulty; only those with stats less than target number checked and had to score a minimum). But, if you prefer using D10 or D12, that's fine, T&T is certainly not written in stone (and that's one of the others attractions of the game). I don't think there is one GM playing the game without any change. As a D6 fetishist I can not blame you for a D12 fetish
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 8, 2007 11:04:57 GMT -5
Of course, there is still the 5 minimum needed, but it only amounts (more or less, given the doubles re-rolls)...And also, you can always rule that some SRs are automatically passed if the character has a high level enough stat (there was a game, Dragon Warriors I think, where you didn't checked if your stat was more than the difficulty; only those with stats less than target number checked and had to score a minimum). That has always been a big issue of mine with T&T, and I like the idea of "not checking if stats are high enough" so much that I might use it. Thank you! It's always bugged me that if you need a 20 to succeed in a task, and you have an attribute of 27 (for example), you only need to make the minimum 5 to succeed, yet you can still fail just as easily as the character with an attribute of 15! And, for me, that "minimum five failure" comes up with alarming frequency! I wonder what the percentage chance of "failing to make the minimum 5" is? Because if it's more than, say, 16% (or even 10%), one house rule option might be: "If you have an attribute score higher than the SR number to hit, you would make a special SR on one die, and fail only on a '1'." (Which die to use is a point to be considered, and would depend on the failure rate based on the Minimum 5 rule).
(I don't think merely acertaining percentages based on the high roll of the dice will be very accurate, because two dice are based on a bell curve... average numbers will roll more frequently than extreme high or lows. (A d20 has a five percent chance of any number coming up; this is not true of 2d10). Also, the DARO factor will make even numbers more infrequent than odd numbers (no matter how a seven comes up, it will stay a seven; if an eight comes up there is a 1 in 3 chance it will be changed into a higher number).
Of course, I know you know all of this... all of us on this board do . T&T has turned us all into a bunch of mathematicians and staticians! But I felt a brief explanation of my thinking might help others here understand what I'm trying to do, and make it easier to explain to me where I might be making "logic errors." 'Rolling anything but a 1 on a single die' for characters with attributes higher than the difficulty seems like it would be a nice middle-ground where characters with high-level attributes wouldn't fail so frequently, yet wouldn't require the GM to create ever-higher SR numbers for the same task (as attributes increase). The reason the d10's worked for me is because characters are able to roll scores of 13+ without doubles. If you've ever tried to hit an Orc at medium range (an "average" character has to roll a 25 on 2d6!), you know how frustrating it can be to hit higher numbers. Double 8's automatically gives you 16 just to start, plus you can re-roll! We use a similar "reality test" by the way! However, even though I want the results to be "realistic," I also want rules-driven methods of avoiding PC death. As an example, in my T&T games, if an Orc with a crossbow hits a PC, I allow the PC a save to avoid or reduce the damage of the hit. If a PC hits an MR-rated Orc, however, the Orc takes whatever damage the dice indicate. MR-rated monsters don't get the "second chance." I do the same thing with magic. If my MR-rated Sorcerer blasts a PC, the PC may be able to avoid it somehow... but if a PC Wizard blasts a monster, well, Dinner Is Prepared. ;D I know that some people feel that's unfair to the monsters, but to my mind, there are thousands of stormtroopers and only one Luke... that makes it fair. Now, if Luke is up against Vader, then both (or neither) get "second chance" rolls.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 8, 2007 11:48:41 GMT -5
I am afraid it is one of the main game attraction for me (and I play MSPE which is even more deadly, because of lower stats) See, I love MSPE, it's my default game when I want to play a new game but don't know what system I want to use. Basically, if I'm not playing T&T, I'm playing MSPE. And I just never saw the stats as "lower." A DEX of 15 combined with a skill of 10 still comes up to a 25 total. In my T&T games, a DEX of 25 (in humans... I tend to run very human-ocentric games) is a pretty amazing thing! So, the only real difference is, the score has just one use in MSPE, but multiple uses in T&T. Since I penalize "non-class" skill use, it comes out basically the same. The MSPE character without the skill has to use his DEX only, and the T&T character has his DEX score, but typically at 1/2 (or perhaps with +2 levels of difficulty added, or +10 to the SR) to account for lack of skill. In this example, the differences are either washed out, or the MSPE character actually has the higher chance of success! (15 for the MSPE character, versus 12 for the T&T character, which assumes the T&T character has a DEX of 25, which would make him very high level). EDIT: I just saw your very awesome MSPE website... unfortunately, my computer usage is limited right now and I don't have the hours of access I'm going to need to peruse it properly... however, you have a bangin' website, dude, and I am very excited about spending some time looking through all the goodies! I hope everyone on this board has seen it!
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Post by apeloverage on Dec 8, 2007 22:54:43 GMT -5
The chance of rolling lower than 5 on two dice where doubles add and re-roll is 1 in 9.
The first dice can have 6 results, the second can also have 6. Thus there are 36 possible results (counting for example rolling 3 then 4 as different to rolling 4 then 3).
Of those 36, there are six combinations that add up to less than 5: 1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 2-2, 3-1, and 1-3.
However 1-1 and 2-2 are doubles, so you re-roll, and it isn't possible for the grand total to be less than 5 (1-1 then 1-1 rolls a third time, 1-1 then 1-2 or 2-1 adds up to exactly 5).
So there are four combinations that end up with a total of less than 5.
Since all the combinations are equally likely on fair dice, the chance of getting less than 5 is 4 in 36, or 1 in 9.
Making the relevant threshhold be rolling less than 4 would reduce the chance to 1 in 18, which is close to the 1 in 20 chance of a 'critical miss' in D&D.
I also like the rule that you don't have to roll if the 'target' is 0 or less (ie if the relevant attribute is equal to or over 15+(5*the save level)).
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Post by Mhegrrrim Skulltosser on Dec 8, 2007 23:11:22 GMT -5
Fenris Wolf, I feel so much for your lack of luck in rolling DARO.
My own weakness was to rolling 1d100 in any Chaosium game. When I roll for a character I roll a lot of 98-00. When I roll for an opponent I naturally roll 01-03. Those Chaosium games left dozens of amputees in the wake of horrid die rolls.
Of course from a young age I've reveled in my personal Super Power. I can roll doubles almost at will! As MR. DOUBLER I command double 6's at will while playing Backgammon. (Ok, I am exagerating a little, although I really do enjoy rolling many doubles)
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gwindel
4th Level Troll
-Spirituality is a crime against Humanity-
Posts: 252
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Post by gwindel on Dec 9, 2007 5:08:29 GMT -5
And I just never saw the stats as "lower." A DEX of 15 combined with a skill of 10 still comes up to a 25 total. In my T&T games, a DEX of 25 (in humans... I tend to run very human-ocentric games) is a pretty amazing thing! So, the only real difference is, the score has just one use in MSPE, but multiple uses in T&T. Since I penalize "non-class" skill use, it comes out basically the same. The MSPE character without the skill has to use his DEX only, and the T&T character has his DEX score, but typically at 1/2 (or perhaps with +2 levels of difficulty added, or +10 to the SR) to account for lack of skill. In this example, the differences are either washed out, or the MSPE character actually has the higher chance of success! (15 for the MSPE character, versus 12 for the T&T character, which assumes the T&T character has a DEX of 25, which would make him very high level). You are probably right about the use of skills compensating for the difference in stats. But the difference in stats tends to grow with leveling up (after all, a MSPE character only receives 2 points for his stats with each level). I think the difference becomes visible at higher levels (and still more for CON where no skill applies when receiving damage). So it probably depends at which level you play. So I have always thought MSPE (without homerules) more deadly than T&T (without homerules). But, as I play my T&T games with MSPE as the base rules (2 pts to spend when leveling up, use of skills...); T&T is not safer in my games. And thanks for the comments about my site. I should post an MSPE horror scenario before the end of the year; I hope you'll like it.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 9, 2007 10:01:06 GMT -5
So I have always thought MSPE (without homerules) more deadly than T&T (without homerules). But, as I play my T&T games with MSPE as the base rules (2 pts to spend when leveling up, use of skills...); T&T is not safer in my games. And thanks for the comments about my site. I should post an MSPE horror scenario before the end of the year; I hope you'll like it. One difference is, I think, that MSPE has guns, and if you are running anything remotely realistic, a world with guns will be deadlier than a world without guns. T&T & MSPE (almost without exception!) make this point clear by allowing fighters to "fight off" melee attacks, but require you to take the full damage of missile attacks; I can't think of any other RPG that does that (in every other rpg, a 1d10 sword and 1d10 pistol will hurt you equally if they hit, but in T&T/MSPE two fighters may reduce the sword blow by fighting back, but the pistol will do it's full damage. This means that missile weapons are inherently more dangerous). Now, this is true enough in T&T where PCs have to lug around big bows and crossbows (as well as arrows), but in MSPE you can fit the same amount of damage in your pocket or purse! Obviously, the world-setting will be more deadly to the average PC. As an aside, I thought I should note that I use a variant of the MSPE system when firing missile weapons in T&T. Rather than apply the "missile adds" as per the rules, I don't count Strength adds, Dexterity is used to make the SR, and Luck adds are added to Dex for making the SR (a DEX15/LK15 PC makes his SR as though his DEX18, the 3 extra points coming from his Luck). Damage is straight die-roll only. IF the SR would hit without the addition of the luck points, and IF the attack does no damage because of armor, and IF the player bribes me with Hostess Cakes, I might allow the Luck points to apply to damage, instead. However, it took only one PC doing 101+ points of damage with his blowgun to make me see the error of my ways regarding missile weapons. I have no doubt that your upcoming MSPE scenario will be excellent. In fact, your site in general is so awesome that I almost hesitate to offer up my ideas and suggestions regarding MSPE... when the Student tells the Master how to fight, the Student can only be seen as impertinent, at best. Clearly, you are very knowledgeable in all things MSPE... I hope my comments and suggestions will never be considered an affront; your expertise is both acknowledged and admired!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 9, 2007 10:20:37 GMT -5
Fenris Wolf, I feel so much for your lack of luck in rolling DARO. I can roll doubles almost at will! As MR. DOUBLER I command double 6's at will while playing Backgammon. (Ok, I am exagerating a little, although I really do enjoy rolling many doubles) Man, I couldn't roll doubles if my (imaginary) life depended on it, which it often has. I thought it was just me, to tell you the truth, until I noticed that a lot of characters died in T&T with all my players. I had already reduced the SR levels down to where pretty much everything was a L1SR, and nobody ever had to roll anything except the minimum 5, but they still kept dying. Scenario 1: Okay, there is a chasm 10 feet wide in front of you. Make a L1SR on your ST of 16 to jump over it. Oops, sorry, you died. Scenario 2: Okay, there are three huge sharp swinging pendulums between you and the exit... any one of them hitting you spells instant death. Make a L1SR on your LK of 23 to avoid all three of them and get to the exit. Oops, sorry, you died. Scenario 3: Okay, the only way past the brigade of Orcs in the room next to you is to sneak past them and hope they don't hear you. No, it's okay that you're wearing metal armor, we'll just say that you've dampened the noise with leather underneath. Make a L1SR on your DEX of 17 or LK of 23 to sneak past quietly. Oops, sorry, you died. Scenario 4: Okay, the Emperor has just dropped a nuclear bomb on your dungeon. Make a L1SR on your LK of 23 to find something to hide under so you don't take side damage. Oops, sorry, you died. Scenario 5: Okay..., well, you get the idea.... After these types of experiences, I started looking for other options. Altering the dice type wasn't the first idea, but it's the one that feels the most "T&T-ish" because the rulebook says that Saving Rolls "are always made on two dice." Since it doesn't specify which two dice, specifically, I thought myself rather clever creating this "loophole."
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 9, 2007 10:42:20 GMT -5
The chance of rolling lower than 5 on two dice where doubles add and re-roll is 1 in 9.Since all the combinations are equally likely on fair dice, the chance of getting less than 5 is 4 in 36, or 1 in 9. Making the relevant threshhold be rolling less than 4 would reduce the chance to 1 in 18, which is close to the 1 in 20 chance of a 'critical miss' in D&D. I also like the rule that you don't have to roll if the 'target' is 0 or less (ie if the relevant attribute is equal to or over 15+(5*the save level)). So my idea of rolling just a 1 on a die wouldn't really work unless it was a d20... rolling on d10 or d12 would give essentially the same odds as rolling 2d6 and hoping for the minimum five. Since the basic odds are the same, the rule modification would serve no true purpose. While I really do like the idea of not rolling if the relevant attribute is higher than the target number, that does sound a bit like some of the current crop of diceless and "dice-less" games out there, and I like the dice rolling. The problem I have is when the dice are "weighted" toward failure... I want them weighted toward sucess, because I believe that heroes should succeed far more than not.
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Post by zanshin on Dec 14, 2007 8:01:57 GMT -5
One approach i take is to let them roll and see what the highest level saving roll they get is , and work out the beneficial outcome (or not) according to the level of the save.
I like that it is such a freewheeling system.
And yes, stick with the d6 IMO.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 31, 2007 12:19:44 GMT -5
Since we'd been discussing SR ratings here, and how difficult things should be, I thought this quote from Steve Jackson in Monsters! Monsters! might be germane, not to mention somewhat amusing: "... there isn't much that could happen, short of the sun going nova, that should require a fifth-level saving roll." Wow. I had no idea I had been playing so wrong all these years!
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Post by zanshin on Jan 2, 2008 4:58:43 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned the 7th edition change (which i really like) that the fumble is now only a 3 on the roll? This reduces fumbles from an 11% chance to a 5.5% chance - same as Runequest.
The other option of course is to have less than fatal consequences from a failed roll - halve their damage input say, or damage rather than death from falls etc.
Or both.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Jan 3, 2008 4:21:23 GMT -5
A fumble on <3...could work!
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Post by zanshin on Jan 3, 2008 4:52:24 GMT -5
Of course its a fumble on a 3 only, as 2 adds and rolls over
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