Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 18, 2007 11:24:17 GMT -5
Has anyone else out there ever re-named Luck? To me, "Luck," strictly speaking, was the roll of the dice; attributes reflected your skills and abilities. Nowdays I tend to use the term "Luck" unchanged, more to honor T&T than anything else, but I still normally use it the way I had originally re-named it all those years ago. Instead of Luck, I called it Prowess. Definition: 1. superior skill: exceptional ability or skill Synonyms: ability, skill, expertise, competence, competency, aptitude, proficiency, know-how, knack, talent Antonym: incompetence
2. valor in combat: extraordinary valor and ability in combat Synonyms: bravery, valor, heroism, gallantry, courage, daring Antonym: cowardice For awhile though, I just called it "Skill" because it meant the same thing but had a more T&T "simplicity" to it... besides, it sounded right in PC arguments: P1: "Did you see that move I made! That was some serious skill!" P2: "Skill??? That wasn't skill, that was just dumb luck!" Viewed from that (somewhat skewed) angle, Luck and Skill were just two sides of the same coin, anyway. Even though I just use the term "Luck" nowdays out of honor and convenience, I usually use it as described above. How about anybody else? Has anyone else ever treated Luck differently?
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Post by zanshin on Dec 18, 2007 11:47:58 GMT -5
As Napoleon said 'I want lucky generals'
Part of skill is judging how much you can leave to chance, so i agree , they are two sides of the same coin.
In a t&t context however i use it as the arbiter of chance, just as i used Pow rolls in Runequest in the same way. If its a matter of grace/agility - dex, if its a matter of reflexes - speed, if its just plain dumb luck, well.... Luck!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 18, 2007 13:19:03 GMT -5
Remember, I don't know anything about 7e, so I'm not sure how it's handled there! Perhaps in 7e, SRs are more evenly spread about around the attributes. In 5e, Luck was the SR attribute, kind of like D&D at that time had Saving Throw numbers (Save vs. Death Ray, Save vs. Wands, etc.). Only instead of five different save categories, T&T only had one (making it the "easier" game). SRs on other attributes was given a short paragraph as a GM option down at the bottom of the page on SRs... judging by the way the chapter reads and general layout, I got the impression that SRs on other attributes were a fairly rare thing. Since Luck was the Saving Roll attribute, and added to your combat skill, I assumed that it referred to general adventuring ability as well as combat ability... thus, it evolved over the years into something akin to prowess. Generally, I use it reactively in SRs... if you are attempting to do something, it is probably IQ or DEX (or occasionally CHR); if something is being done to you, it's probably LK. Of course, newer T&T may use SRs over all attributes more equally... alas, I am still stuck in the 80's... but I'm happy here, so it's all good. P.S. Duran Duran Rocks! Like, totally, dude! ;D
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Post by Mhegrrrim Skulltosser on Dec 18, 2007 22:29:17 GMT -5
Personally? I'd never rename Luck. It is a uniquely T&T attribute to describe the most interesting of happen stance. I have always liked the concept of stupid Luck. It certainly explains why some people suceed despite their best efforts!
I know Kyrinn has called it Instincts or was that Inspiration maybe even Fate? She uses it to represent the natural talent within people.
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rlotze
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 79
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Post by rlotze on Dec 18, 2007 22:48:46 GMT -5
huh... I've never considered "luck" as anything but luck. Sheer dumb luck. Which lvl 1s don't have much of. Sooooo...... since it can improve with experience, perhaps it isn't actually 'luck'? huh.... *goes off to ponder*
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 19, 2007 5:05:44 GMT -5
I've always considered Luck as the amount of control a person had over his'her fate-part random chance, part instinct and part sheer desire to master circumstances. It's one reason most of my campaigns have Luck-fueled Magic...that and the way it keeps my Wizards off the 'roids. Although to be honest, the Liavek books-and the concept of "birth luck'" and "investure"-probably sealed the deal. I LOVE those books!
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Post by zanshin on Dec 19, 2007 5:20:39 GMT -5
Yes, but you dont really get stronger, cleverer or more attractive by killing monsters and stealing their treasure either Your luck grows as you get more successful, because luck is attracted by good fortune, and because you can judge when to rely on it better. Also the T&T solos (which framed my t&t experience for a very long while) have you testing everything ; and stunts of course are stat directed. So i guess i was always thinking you tested the appropriate stat.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 19, 2007 9:34:27 GMT -5
I know Kyrinn has called it Instincts or was that Inspiration maybe even Fate? She uses it to represent the natural talent within people. Who is this Kryinn of whom you speak? Originally, before settling on Prowess (and then later more simply Skill and finally back to Luck... you always go back to the basics ), I more or less noticed that it was usually used as kind of an averaging of Agility + Instinct/Intuition; kind of like Danger Sense in games with "Gifts." Basically, I used the Spider-Man test... how would I have Spidey make an SR to aim a web-shot? DEX SR. How would I make Spidey roll to avoid being shot by a thug? LK SR. But we all know that Spidey's ability to avoid being shot isn't LK at all, but a combination of super-fast reactions and that bizarre "sixth sense" of his. Since a lot of heroes (in movies and books, as well as comics) seem to have some eerie knack of knowing when "something is wrong" and being able to react to this unknown with split-second precision, it seemed a natural fit. And since T&T materials seemed so inclined to use it in that way anyway, I just went all the way with it and re-named the attribute. It is completely logical (to me, anyway), that the same ability that allows Spidey to quickly zip out of the way of Gobby's pumpkin bombs would also help him be a better fighter... a belief that has been born out in the comics when Spidey loses his Spider-Sense. Therefore, the idea that the skill would indicate Agility and Instinct/Intuition and yet also add to combat skill didn't phase me at all... and when I discovered that there was actually a word in the dictionary that meant, "Agility + Intuition + Combat Skill," well, that was pretty much the end of the matter. I am still very intrested in this Kryinn, however... I'd like to see exactly what she did and how she did it. Thanks in advance!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 19, 2007 10:00:32 GMT -5
Yes, but you dont really get stronger, cleverer or more attractive by killing monsters and stealing their treasure either I would say that you probably would get stronger and cleverer by killing monsters, or else you'd just be dead. Personally, I don't really consider Charisma to be "attractivness," but instead more akin to "force of personality"... like Kirk in Star Trek Classic, who has a Charisma of about 25 on a "true" 3-18 scale. Note, however, that William Shatner does not. (I'm not dissing Bill; just noting the difference). Likewise, Paris Hilton, for example, might have a very high Physical Beauty but a Charisma of only 7 (unlikeable but tolerable... so, okay, actually a little less than 7). However, if you do consider Charisma to be simply Physical Beauty, you could argue that being more physically fit would make you more attractive (as in GURPS), and having more money would allow you to take better care of yourself. If you use it as "Force of Personality," then of course it would be improved by successful adventuring/killing monsters. As an aside, I also frequently use Charisma as a measure of Spiritual Power, as Religious Leaders frequently exhibit freakish amounts of ability to control masses... not at all unlike Hitler, for example, who also had extreme Charisma but low Physical Beauty. Yes, this means that I've used systems where Magic Points were based on Charisma (although Charisma did not change as points depleted). But does it really? Bill Gates is a multi-gazillionaire, but he started out in a garage. Did he become a multi-gazallionaire because he just got luckier at building computers and making deals with the right people... or because he got better at it? I always felt that the solos tested the other attributes when it seemed the most likely attribute in question, but when avoiding a dangerous hazard (arrows, pit traps, pendulums, etc), it seemed generally on Luck, rather than Dex (which the rulebook also indicates). But, to be honest, the solos also (at least the early ones) change attributes up and down so much that I want to re-name my character "Yo-Yo" (anybody remember that awful Deathtrap Equalizer Dungeon?), which is something else I don't agree with... attributes should rarely change, and when they do, it should be very temporary (with the singular exception of Level Increases). As a result of general dissatisfaction with the way solos did things, I don't always do things in solo-mod fashion.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 19, 2007 10:12:00 GMT -5
I've always considered Luck as the amount of control a person had over his'her fate-part random chance, part instinct and part sheer desire to master circumstances. It's one reason most of my campaigns have Luck-fueled Magic...that and the way it keeps my Wizards off the 'roids. If by 'roids you mean hemmroids, I can't help ya, Bud. But if you mean steroids, I wrote a way of handling that on another post, and you'll find it handles the "Strength Inflation" issue (making it no longer an issue). That doesn't mean that it's right for your games or your groups, of course, but it really take the Strength Inflation issue off the table (and has been mercilessily playtested for over 20 years, so you have my money-back guarantee that it works). Here's a link, just check it out... it's free and easy (like a good date!). trollbridge.proboards44.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=editionwars&thread=1155733020&page=4 It's on that page somewhere....
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Post by zanshin on Dec 19, 2007 11:39:35 GMT -5
Repeat after me , T&T is not a simulationist gaming experience Soldiers dont generally get physicaly fitter from fighting, only training, what they get better at is dealing with the experience of combat. To a point, then they start to get nervous exhaustion. I really am not hung up at all about the open ended nature of T&T's advancement system. When i worry about things like that I'll go for Runequest. What i came up with is a fast and dirty generalisation that is T&T appropriate. I wouldn't see Bill Gates as lucky per se, as in the kind of 'charmed life' that luck represents in T&T - adventurers in a freebooting world of high adventure/monopolist multimillionaires...not the same thing.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 19, 2007 12:24:19 GMT -5
Repeat after me , T&T is not a simulationist gaming experience... ... And it is very much able to be tailored to specific tastes... much like a good cook is able to take a plain meal and alter it to suit the tastes of himself and his guests. It just happens that I like strong, skilled heroes over dithering characters who just happen to be in the right place at the right time. I'd rather play out the adventures of a Conan or James Bond or Batman* over Bilbo Baggins/Frodo Baggins/Sam Gamgee-types who just bumble their way through their adventures.** That doesn't mean I think that a more light-hearted style is wrong, mind you... just different from my tastes. When playing in someone else's world, I play the way their world works... when creating my own, I tailor it to my specific tastes. Just like the good cook mentioned above, I don't expect someone else's spaghetti to taste just like mine... but it is still my hope that my guests will find it delicious, even if it doesn't taste the same as theirs. *You might also have noticed that all of these characters are "skill-based" types who rely on their own minds and muscles to succeed in their adventures, rather than magic or mystical powers or one sort or another; this, too, is typical of my interests in movies/books/video games/roleplaying games. **Another thing I've noted in this particular instance is that regardless of what it's called, Luck-Danger Sense-Agility-Intuition-Instinct-Prowess-Skill-Whatever, I've never changed it's general usage in the game. In other words, whether you are playing Frodo Baggins and call it Luck, or if you are playing Aragorn and call it Skill, it has the exact same game effect: the ability to avoid something bad happening to your character, and also additional combat adds. It is completely possible that I could just give you a list of attribute "names" that would do those things (as above) and let you pick your own source of your ability... the result is the same in strictly mechanical terms, i.e., the name change is merely descriptive; it defines the character and sets the tone. But if you wanted to play your character as an unskilled Everyman, swinging his sword blindly and just luckily hitting a major artery; or avoiding being hit by an Arrow-In-The-Wall trap not because you saw it out of the corner of your eye and quickly moved, but instead because you were bending over to scratch your rear at that time... that's perfectly fine by me! Or, if you want to play your character as a skillful and trained adventurer who succeeds because he's good at what he does, that's okay, too.
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Post by gamepunk26 on Dec 19, 2007 16:14:03 GMT -5
I use Luck as a catch-all. Listen and sight checks, dodging, searching, and anything else that does not have an attribute tied to it.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 20, 2007 4:37:30 GMT -5
Sounds like renaming it to Skill is the way to go for you then: It covers the Instincts and experience of the PC, allows the modification of Combat rolls and is(by the 5th ed. standards) the easiest to increase when gaining Levels, as opposed to bulking out in the weight room or reading late into the night...so yeah, Skill fits. I've always called it Luck though-just a traditionalist I guess. Whether I play a high-Luck character as the Grey Mouser or Inspector Clousseau is up to me...
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Post by zanshin on Dec 20, 2007 4:44:54 GMT -5
Sure Fenris , and i certainly wasn't dissing the way you create and run your games, sounds to me like they are well crafted , with great attention to detail.
I also like your description of how a high luck everyman could operate in an adventuring environment, very entertaining, thank you.
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