|
Post by gamepunk26 on Feb 1, 2008 6:35:30 GMT -5
I am going to swing my game into a horror/zombie style world based largely on the Myth and Deathstalkers games. I know that simple save vs. INT or maybe CHA caould be used, but i have some hardy low INT warriors that mgiht not be so scared to face monsters and soem high INT wizards that should be scared to death by some of the creatures and goings on. Has anyone ever used a Horror Factor type mechanic in their games?
|
|
|
Post by zanshin on Feb 1, 2008 9:20:45 GMT -5
In Runequest/Call of Cthulu they use Power, which is equivalent to Wizardry - still not a help for those brave warriors.
You could use Luck, reflecting self belief, or Constituition , to reflect mental and physical toughness.
Maybe Wizardry - warriors will not have an intrinsicaly high score, but will not be reducing it by dabbling with things man was not meant to know.
Maybe give warriors a free bonus to fear saves equal to their level to reflect their training and mental attitude.
Make warriors immune to fear of horrors when berserk.
OR fail IQ saves to resist the horrors; succeeding means you are all too aware of the peril your body/soul/mind is in.
Just random thoughts which may or may not be helpful...
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Feb 1, 2008 12:06:35 GMT -5
You are looking for "fear check" rules?
In GURPS, fear checks are based off IQ, but that suggests that you're using IQ not only to mean how smart you are, but also, "mental muscle" (which may not be the effect you're looking for in your games). Still, I think it's probably the standard, and it works well enough.
Another possibility to consider might simply be making a "Courage" or even "Willpower" rating. If you wanted, Willpower and Wizardry could be the same thing (this is using Aleister Crowley's definition of magic), or you could just make a whole brand new attribute.
SRs can be made before having to do something scary, or when dealing with something scary. The higher the Level, the more Courage or Willpower you need to deal with it. (Opening a door on a normal day, no SR; opening a door that you know probably has a Lurking Horror behind it is at least L1SR).
The players may get a little tired of hearing, "you're too frightened to do that" or "the terror numbs you all the way to your soul... it's all you can do to curl up in a fetal position and jabber to yourself," but the SRs will go a long way to getting the players to understand that the characters are afraid, and to play it properly. (A player making his L1SR on Courage to open that door should understand that, even though afraid, he's found the courage to do it anyway).
I used to play Chill (Pacesetter version), and that game uses Willpower, and we used to have a blast with it. I don't care for CoC with it's loss of sanity... being afraid to look in the window (or out the window) works for me.
|
|
|
Post by apeloverage on Feb 1, 2008 16:06:37 GMT -5
The players may get a little tired of hearing, "you're too frightened to do that" or "the terror numbs you all the way to your soul... it's all you can do to curl up in a fetal position and jabber to yourself," Maybe a failed 'fear save' doesn't mean you can't do something, but that you have minuses to all your characteristics if you try and do it, and pluses if you try and avoid it. For example, if you fail a fear save relating to fighting a monster, you have minuses to all your characteristics if you fight it - but if you choose to run away, you have pluses to your SPD. This would mean that players aren't robbed of choice, and it gives an incentive for them to role-play fear. They still have the choice to attack the Gibbering Horror, but running away might be their best option.
|
|
|
Post by gamepunk26 on Feb 1, 2008 17:15:18 GMT -5
I was thinking of using it for "boss" type monsters or really new and horrible creatures. Kind of a common sense thing. If yoy fail your check, you realize that this thing is completely unknown to you and it may be well beyond your capabilties. I have "boss" coming up that starts as a skelton, but leaps up and attaches itself to one of the PCs and feeds off of it. The description I have dreamed up for it is pretty gruesome. This should be horrifying to the players and I want them to feel a little panic, making or failing a save puts a game mechanic behind what would otherwise be a reaction of "We blast it!!" My players are pretty fearless. Thanks for the suggestions.
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Feb 1, 2008 18:37:09 GMT -5
Well, I can't speak for your players, but if I were playing a game and the GM started a new game with, "Okay everybody, for this game I want everyone to grab three dice and roll up a Courage rating for their character," the first thing I would think is, "Oh Crap...."
|
|
order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
|
Post by order99 on Feb 2, 2008 5:31:00 GMT -5
You could always go with IQ as "mental quickness", with failure simply being one Combat Round of standing rooted to the spot with Terror. The subsequent free Attack roll would be punishment enough I think, after which the PCs would be together enough to fight or run(not saying they wouldn't be gibbering or screaming in fear, but survival reflexes should kick in at this point).
As far as Madness and such-just have some creatures inflict it as a Special Attack (perhaps the same effect as a Dum-Dum spell, and the same 'Ability comparisons' resistance involved. Or just Roleplay it.
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Feb 2, 2008 9:03:29 GMT -5
You could always go with IQ as "mental quickness", with failure simply being one Combat Round of standing rooted to the spot with Terror. The subsequent free Attack roll would be punishment enough I think, after which the PCs would be together enough to fight or run(not saying they wouldn't be gibbering or screaming in fear, but survival reflexes should kick in at this point). Depending on what the Horror is and what it can do, that might be the same as instant kill... if it's taking Cthulu or Nyarlahotep more than one combat round to knock off a few Glassblowers and Shepherds, the Old Boyz are slipping!
|
|
|
Post by branderwydd /|\ on Feb 2, 2008 10:41:25 GMT -5
the lovecraft variant article in sorcerer's apprentice had an interesting system for this. SRs to endure horrible experiences, based on a new attribute [emotional stability], and then a table of results if one COULDN'T deal with it (i.e., failed the SR). it retains T&T flavor well. i've used it for cthulhu-esque games from time to time over the years, and it is a fun diversion from standard t&t. give it a peek. issues were somewhere around 6-9, IIRC.
i've modified this to keep with only the base 8 attributes, and use fear SRs on WIZ (which i've renamed as WILL in this variant). my own take on magic is that it is one's own will forcing a change upon the world around us. as we become mentally and emotionally exhausted (via loss of WIZ), our will power diminishes and then leaves us open for fear creeping in....
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Feb 2, 2008 11:28:48 GMT -5
the lovecraft variant article in sorcerer's apprentice had an interesting system for this. SRs to endure horrible experiences, based on a new attribute [emotional stability], and then a table of results if one COULDN'T deal with it (i.e., failed the SR). it retains T&T flavor well. i've used it for cthulhu-esque games from time to time over the years, and it is a fun diversion from standard t&t. give it a peek. issues were somewhere around 6-9, IIRC.
i've modified this to keep with only the base 8 attributes, and use fear SRs on WIZ (which i've renamed as WILL in this variant). my own take on magic is that it is one's own will forcing a change upon the world around us. as we become mentally and emotionally exhausted (via loss of WIZ), our will power diminishes and then leaves us open for fear creeping in.... Well, according to Crowley (and the Golden Dawn), "Magic is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." So I think Will is a great name for the Power! I only have a few SA's, but I think I have that one; I'll have to take a look. It sounds cohesive and very well-suited to the source material, especially the parts of the Cthulu mythos that were absorbed by Howard. Gamepunk, is your horror based on Cthulu-styled "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" horror, or are you doing something a bit more down to earth? If the latter, I apologize for threadjacking! Let us know if you like these ideas and think they'll work for your game!
|
|
|
Post by branderwydd /|\ on Feb 4, 2008 15:06:35 GMT -5
once again we think alike - crowley et al is more or less where my mind was at.
|
|
uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
|
Post by uburoi on Feb 4, 2008 18:41:52 GMT -5
Well, I can't speak for your players, but if I were playing a game and the GM started a new game with, "Okay everybody, for this game I want everyone to grab three dice and roll up a Courage rating for their character," the first thing I would think is, "Oh Crap...." In that case what the GM does is to roll the CUR scores in secret... so, much as in real life, PCs would have no idea what they could endure until push comes to shove.
|
|
uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
|
Post by uburoi on Feb 4, 2008 18:51:14 GMT -5
Well, according to Crowley (and the Golden Dawn), "Magic is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." So I think Will is a great name for the Power! Welp, that's about the only time you're going to see Crowley linked with T&T... unless someone decides to write "Delving Without Tears". (you know, that sounds like a great title for a column in the Hobbit Hole, actually...)
|
|
Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
|
Post by Fenris on Feb 4, 2008 19:43:09 GMT -5
Welp, that's about the only time you're going to see Crowley linked with T&T... unless someone decides to write "Delving Without Tears". I certainly hope not! The OGD is, admittedly, a bit late for the period normally explored in fantasy rpgs, but the history of these Mystical Societies (Templars, Rosicrucians, etc.) have done much to expand our knowledge of the mystical world. Incorporating their ideas of mystical reality can only improve the veracity of a game. And since the rituals they've uncovered/explored/created come from the days when any magic not sanctioned by God was considered intrinsically evil, there is a sense of "darkness" in their works that one rarely finds in Generic D&D-style fiction or modern day "new-age" pap. As a result, not only is incorporating these ideas into a game good for veracity, but further, in a game with a horror bias, the material being drawn from would likely do a pretty good job of "scaring the crap" out of your players (when used in connection with gaming). For example, imagine playing an RPG where, when your Wizard character attempts to cast a spell, the GM actually has you read a passage from the Goetia! (This assumes that you-as-player would be favorable to such a thing; obviously if the player objects, there should be no reading. The objective here is flavor, not the forcing of one's beliefs on another). More than a few rpgs have actually attempted to incorporate authentic medieval mystical beliefs into gaming, of course, Ars Magica being one of the better known. The much maligned "Bruce Galloway's Fantasy Wargaming," while light on the actual keys, attempted to marry the concepts together. Morrigan Press' "High Medieval" did a credible job of maintaining an adherence to medieval sources while not pissing off the religious extremists. And the much beloved Dragonquest (SPI) reportedly took the name of many of it's demons from the Lesser Key (and although I have a copy of DragonQuest, I just don't remember if that's true or not). By the way, like GURPS, DragonQuest also uses a system where magic spells cost fatigue (i.e. loss of strength points). The "winner and still champeen" goes to a little board game called Demons which actually uses sigils from the Key of Solomon as playing pieces! Noted mystic Donald Kraig has even made comments to the effect that this game could cause unusual behavior in the player who spends too much time with the game, as they are unwittingly opening a door between worlds! (That is a personal interpretation of his statement, and not the actual statement proper... please do not form any opinions on Kraig or his work based on the above comment). The point is, the works of Crowley, Waite, MacGregor-Mathers, et. al., can not only be easily incorporated into fantasy rpgs, but because they are a direct extension of the period most fantasy rpgs are set in, the works are also a "nice fit." While it is (obviously) entirely possible to create a game where magic works by power of the mind or birthright or out of a bubble gum machine, the exploration of the themes inherent in the works of Mystical Societies can add flavor and pizazz to what would otherwise be just another D&D or LotR rip-off. IMHO, YMMV, Etc., Etc., Etc. No personal attack on anyone's religious beliefs are intended in this rant. No babies or small animals were harmed in any way during the creation of this post. Opposing opinions are welcome, and will be ignored the same way this one was by the opposer. The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. Moses supposes his toeses are roses, but Moses supposes erroneously. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does anyone give a good rat's arse?
|
|
order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
|
Post by order99 on Feb 5, 2008 2:29:13 GMT -5
I doubt anybody on this Forum is so easily offended as all that. Having said that, I do advise a bit of caution on mixing Historical Grimoires with your RPGs. I doubt your group would object (you know them better than I do after all), but even so: 1) RPGs have had a reputation for being a "gateway to the Occult". Nonsense of course-but if some idiot with a camera-phone happened to peer into a window whilst on his way elsewhere, Jack Chick would get plenty of new ammo... 2) Recent research suggests that certain sounds, aural patterns and words do actually influence human behavior. Donald Kraig isn't far off the mark with his warnings. Call it superstition or the power of suggestion if you like, but all of the famous occult treatises have warnings to invoke nothing in them lightly. The power of visualisation is well-documented as to its effectiveness, as are the powers of meditation, prayer and hypnosis. Noted Occultist John Dee once said of his explorations in Enochian that "One must never attempt these rituals unless one has a sincere desire for a transformative experience. Otherwise, changes may occur that one did neither expect nor wish". I'm most likely an idiot to be concerned, so feel free to ignore my Mother Hen natterings. Still, when Jewish scholars omit the vowel sounds when writing of a Holy Name, I can only respect his caution...
|
|