Missile weapon damage in deluxe T&T

[ProfGremlin]

I'll preface my commentary with the acknowledgment that I haven't read through the dT&T rules well enough to quote them or offer specific commentary.

For me, it seems as if there is a discrepancy amongst, and contradictory statements within, missile combat rules. Yes, we know it's effective but how can we apply it? Previous editions had missile combat, and spells, resolved before melee combat ensued. To my mind, that's kind of the whole point of missiles, "I can hurt you before you can touch me." In the current iteration of the rules it almost seems as if we're saying, "As long as you have a missile weapon, you can't lose." Honestly, it makes me wonder why missile weapons aren't the de facto choice anymore. It would seem that a party of delvers all armed as slingers and archers would be a whole lot more devastating to their opponents than any other weapon choice. Even if they all missed their SRs, and by extension their target, they could still win the round via the party HPT.

If, as it seems is being stated, the damage from a ranged miss is still wrapped into the party's HPT then what's the point? When did missing a single target become an effective tactic for group combat? I hope I'm wrong and that I'm misunderstanding the rules as the Fellowship wrote them. Some clarification would certainly be helpful here.

Until there is further clarification I would offer this simple solution: The player whose character employs a missile weapon must make a statement of range - missile range or melee range. For missile range, select the target, resolve the SR and apply any damage, as applicable, before melee combat ensues. For melee combat range, the characters damage roll is simply added into the party's HPT. Simple, straight-forward and avoids the sensation of re-rolling your dice while the GM isn't looking.

[gaptooth]

To kill a low MR oppenent with a "miss" just seems wrong.

Wrong for a "serious" session, for sure. But it does seem funny to have a dozen archers shoot a volley of arrows at a lone hobbit, and when they all miss, the hobbit drops dead anyway from a heart attack!

I did like the option of having everybody in the melee, friend and foe alike, roll an SR and missiles that are not specifically targeted hit the one who rolls lowest. Shooting into a melee should be a bad idea.

This reminds me of a cool, somewhat hidden feature of LotFP Weird Fantasy, which I've shamelessly borrowed (and simplified) for TTYF! This rule could be in B/X or Labyrinth Lord, but I don't have them handy right now to check. I first noticed it in Raggi's text:

Firing into mêlée with a missile weapon is a very uncertain thing. If doing so, randomly determine who in the mêlée is actually targeted – the firing character does not get to choose – before rolling to hit.

If the firing character takes a full round to aim, one possible target of the firing character’s choice counts as two people in the mêlée when determining targets. For example, if a character fires into a combat where two of his allies are fighting a lone enemy, normally there would be an equal chance of targeting each. After aiming, the enemy would count as two figures, giving a full 50% chance that the enemy would be the one targeted.

Significantly larger characters or monsters in a mêlée count as two characters for random targeting purposes, and truly gargantuan creatures may be fired upon using the normal rules.

Dexterity modifiers do not apply, for either the firing character or the targets, when resolving missile fire into mêlée.

[sankoff]

gaptooth, in G+ Travis C. give me the key to that confussion, i think.
what i was missing is ""in excess of magic or missile damage" in step 10 on page 87.
On the previous example, if the player in melee rolls 22 (instead of 10) the combat turn concludes as follows:
10 (missile) + 22 (melee) - 20 (monster melee)= 12 points of damage for the monster (10 points full damage from missile + 2 (damage in excess).

[canology]

I have only recently got into T&T, but it seems to me that given the length of a combat round, a miss might actually represent several arrows striking the target(s) but not squarely enough to do the full weapon damage to a single target.
So in the situation where the target was missed by all the archers but still died, I would narrate that as the target was struck by several arrows that each only did a couple of points each.

[canology]

I have been reconsidering my last reply. It seems that missile weapons should NOT be unstoppable killing machines, yet that is what this rule creates. A single guy with 10 hit points gets missed by a pair of archers and is still dead seems wonky. I was visualizing archers as part of a larger melee in my previous reply.
Now I'm thinking I'll go back to the earlier edition rules where targets only take damage on an actually hit.

[canology]

Another thought I just had: allowing missile weapon users to target the *group* of bad guys to allow for a lower SR to hit (since a group is bigger). In this situation I would just have the archer's weapon dice and adds be included in the party total, rather than dealt to a single target.

[khaboom]

Yes, I always adjust the SR if the target is a group.

[zanshin]

In the context of Deluxe, where Wizards get to cast a spell and have a combat total, I don't think hit or miss from an archer generating a HPT is an issue for me.

You could consider a hit a perfectly placed missile shot that places on the target, and a miss to represent all the activity and distraction that the missile user generates in the round -an enemy ducking to avoid their javelin resulted in the swordsman next to them being able to stab them in the foot. Alternatively , Legolas ducking and diving and sticking arrows in peoples eyes at point blank range could also represent the archer not directly hitting with a shot but contributing to the combat total.

The 'downside' for a missile user is that a hit can result in single target overkill. If they do 100 points to a 10 MR goblin, you still only have 1 dead goblin, as the remainder will not be double counted, whereas a melee fighter gets to dish their damage all round the enemy (unless they stunted otherwise).

[Grooz The Mighty]

I can't but think missle weapons should be just like any other type of weapon. Just add the dice to the total like every other weapon. If you want to do some funny shenanigans with missile weapons its like the funny shenanigans from any other weapon that's what SR's are for.


I just do not see any reason to treat them different.  

[khaboom]

Wizards hit so adding to the party total worrks for me in a way that a miss doesn't. I make wizards roll an INT SR to cast spells so they can miss - if Scmuck the Uncertain rolls 1,2 when trying to cast TTYF, he doesn't help his party any more than Blind Lemon Jack does when he attempts to hit a goblin in the melee and rolls 1,2 and hits the barn door instead.
I don't give double adds for DEX any longer on a hit - unecessarily complex and it seems DEX has already been given a work out in the SR to hit. Either you specify you are trying to hit the eye or its a matter of LK.
However..
In anyone else's game, I'll happily play by your rules

[Grooz The Mighty]

I mean we don't roll to hit with weapons, a weapon is a weapon is a weapon right? I understand that's not the official rule but nobody can get the rules perfect every time. This missile rules seem needlessly different and complicated. Why should they be used any different from swords?

A SR roll can be used to have the cool bow shot tricks just like its used to do those awesome sword tricks. Why make them different. It would be like Daggers being treated totally different from every other weapons because.....roll to hit with that dagger but either way adds its hits. Like WHY? What good does that do or how does that make the game better?

I just don't see it.

[ProfGremlin]

Jun 20, 2017 10:23:33 GMT -5 zanshin said:

If they do 100 points to a 10 MR goblin, you still only have 1 dead goblin...

Yeah, but it's a really dead goblin...

[canology]

My problem is stemming from situations like the following: you have a beginning character with, say 12 CON and maybe 3 pts of armor. He encounters a bored giant, who decides to bank a rock off a nearby cliff-face and a tree to whack our hero in the head. With his DEX of 6 he utterly misses the save needed to make such a complex shot. So he still rolls his damage which is enough to snuff your character even though the rock never came close to hitting him. Technically he wouldn't even have to aim at the character... a miss is as good as a hit in a situation like this. Which is not what I think was Mr St Andre's goal (IMO).

[Grooz The Mighty]

Well a miss would be just like any other weapon attack. The enemies hits are higher than yours, your efforts didn't measure up this round. If he was aiming to knock you in the head and stun you..well that's fine to that's a SR roll. Didn't make it? Well the rock missed!

I mean why is hitting with a missile attack more important than hitting with your sword?

[canology]

So, no matter how preposterous a ranged attack you attempt it should affect the target? The trouble is, even when the rock misses, you die. Even if the giant did nothing else, just a lazy toss of a rock. It just doesn't *feel* right to me... ymmv...