Paladins

[ElvenScribe]

Hey Everyone!  Ok, I could use your collective input again. I know T&T does not have the standard classes that D&D (and so many other OSR games) does/do. But, I find myself wanting to make a paladin character.  What would be the best way to do so. Surely, Paladins are warriors. So, it would seem logical that they would be fit smartly in the warrior class.  But, paladins from the their OSR roots have spell casting ability (healing/laying on of hands, turning undead, calling their warhorse, etc.) which poses a problem.  Which class would this character fit best into?  They could be a "rogue" in order to be able to cast spells and still use knightly weapons and heavy armor, but somehow that doesn't feel like a good fit.  Paladins are warriors at their heart and should surely take advantage of the benefits of that class.   So, there-in lies the problem.  What to do with magic?  Should I just build this knight as a warrior and forget the magic? Or is there a way to do this to still take advantage of the divine miracles (magic) while still having a warrior's prowess?

Your thoughts please!

[mormonyoyoman]

TnT first beguiled me because it had a different definition of "class." In Khenn's game, a class is more like a resume + your current job. To make a paladin, I would determine what skills and traits a paladin would have - then add personal touches. Such as, is he/she dedicated to a specific god or religion, or to a concept or what? Does this paladin have some vow or promise to keep? What gets her/him going in the morning?

This is why you can have half a dozen fighters, with no two alike. TnT was the first rolegame in which I had clonish versions of Conan, Grey Mouser, Strider, and the 3 Musketeers - and didn't have to break or bend rules to do it.

[ProfGremlin]

I would suggest taking a look at the Paragon. They are rare characters who had access to both the warrior and wizard abilities, though not to the same extant of either type singly but more-so than the rogue. In dT&T details can be found in section 12.4. In 5th Ed. look at the warrior-wizard in section 2.11.3. From there, just apply skin/theme/backstory and voilà Paladin!

[gaptooth]

One of the zen-moments of classic T&T for me was realizing that Types aren't equivalent to D&D classes at all.

In terms of T&T Type, a D&D Paladin would be a Rogue (or W-W/Paragon), not a Warrior. In the original game, a Rogue is the type of person who can Fight and Use Magic, not a job description.

The game's reward system offers unlimited specialization without creating new Types: To capture the warrior "feel" of a Paladin, you'd simply boost the attributes that capture that as you gain AP. If you're playing an edition that includes Talents, you can use those to add some more mechanical support for the concept, but it's not required.

The hitch is that T&T has nothing like alignment, but if you posit an equivalent to the Wizards Guild for your game's Paladins, you could set up your own Paladin spell list and have some in-fiction sanctions for Paladins who forsake whatever behavioral codes the order requires.

[gaptooth]

I didn't see Prof's post while I was writing, but the Paragon definitely captures one aspect of old-school Paladins that the standard Rogue doesn't: Minimum attribute requirements.

The reason I didn't suggest that as the default template for a Paladin is that Paragons in Deluxe are going to very difficult to roll up without cheating. But more-over, I'm pretty sure Paragons get all the level 1 spells just like Wizards (don't have time to check Deluxe right now), which might downgrade their Goody-Goody flavor. You could roll with that, though, and just treat it like using The Dark Side of the Force whenever they cast TTYF

[gaptooth]

It's worth looking up Rogues in Deluxe, if that's the version you're playing. I think there's a mention of Rogues becoming the "warrior-wizards of old" as they advance.

[ElvenScribe]

Paragons, eh? I'll have to check into that. Great comments all. Thanks!

[mahrundl]

Another possibility, if you are concerned about the standard spells being inappropriate for a Paladin, could be to replace their spells with the clerical spells from Sorcerer's Apprentice Issue 17.

[gaptooth]

mahrundl, Do you know of any legal way to purchase SA issues, besides Ebay and Noble Knight? The FBI website mentions that they "sometimes have back issues available", but I don't see any links or any downloads available from their RPGNow storefront (except for the Deluxe Adventure's Companion, which came to me via the Kickstarter).

[mahrundl]

Regrettably, I'm unaware of any way of purchasing copies other than via Flying Buffalo (who only have issues 9/10 and 12 available in recent times, from what I have seen) or via eBay or the like.

[jeffepp]

Aug 23, 2016 12:21:57 GMT -5 gaptooth said:

I didn't see Prof's post while I was writing, but the Paragon definitely captures one aspect of old-school Paladins that the standard Rogue doesn't: Minimum attribute requirements.

The reason I didn't suggest that as the default template for a Paladin is that Paragons in Deluxe are going to very difficult to roll up without cheating. But more-over, I'm pretty sure Paragons get all the level 1 spells just like Wizards (don't have time to check Deluxe right now), which might downgrade their Goody-Goody flavor. You could roll with that, though, and just treat it like using The Dark Side of the Force whenever they cast TTYF

WW/Paragons were always hard to roll. And, usually, when you did, they would be just above the minimums.

[gaptooth]

My intuition was that, with 8 attributes instead of 6, the Deluxe-edition Paragon would be harder to roll up than a 5th-edition Warrior-Wizard. You have a 0.278% chance of rolling 12+ on 6 attributes. To roll 12 or higher on 8 attributes would be an order of magnitude less likely, at 0.0391%. That's the way it worked in 7.x.

But that's not how Paragon's work in Deluxe now that I look at it more closely. First off, the rules say you need 12+ on 6 out of 8 attributes (which must include Dexterity, Intelligence, Luck, and Wizardry). Getting 6 out of 8 is more likely than a run of 6, and a lot more likely than getting all eight above 11.

Second, in Deluxe you can get higher scores using the TARO rule in addition to the old way. This gives you a better chance that any given attribute will be 12 or higher.

Once again, my preconceptions formed after the Deluxe T&T Preview Pack and related discussion are overturned by the actual rules: Deluxe makes Paragons more likely than 7th edition or 5th edition.

[dekh]

You could create a Paladin Character Type.

Pick a couple of Prime Attributes.

Add whatever limitations or bonuses you like.

Maybe a Paladins Spell Book (Like Ken's Kin ones) - available only from your local Chapter House.

[mormonyoyoman]

We knew Dekh would have the right answer. As Mad Roy Cram also teaches, it's not cheating if it's within your own game. By definition, a gamesmaster cannot cheat - except by railroading them. GMs, representing reality, are no more concerned with fairness or impossibility than nature. If you need a Paladin NPC, you make one. And if your GM permits you to make a paladin for playing in their game, that is the GM's right.

Play the campaign, not the rules. That's what broke RPGs from wargames, and (IMNSHO) made TnT the first real RPG.

[hrrrothgarrr]

I like Dekh's idea of a Paladin specific spell book. Perhaps a Paladin is a type of Specialist? In any case to build one mix and match from existing Type abilities or make up new ones. Just start by deciding what the defining characterstics of paladinhood are, then build game mechanics to do that.