Paladins

[zanshin]

Another option would be to create a warrior and take paladin style talents - Sense Evil, Healing, Resist corruption. Perhaps have Charisma as the main attribute.

So much of a Paladin is in the roleplay - you are that annoyingly good person who inspires others to be better.

Things like the mount are the kind of thing a GM sets up a quest for.

[ElvenScribe]

Aug 25, 2016 9:01:16 GMT -5 dekh said:

You could create a Paladin Character Type.

Pick a couple of Prime Attributes.

Add whatever limitations or bonuses you like.

Maybe a Paladins Spell Book (Like Ken's Kin ones) - available only from your local Chapter House.

I really like the idea of a Paladin type with their own spells.  I'm returning to this after quite some time.  After more thought, I'm thinking of creating a class of warrior-monks that are more like samurai than they are like crusaders. So, more Eastern in outlook/philosophy than Western.  So, basically Jedi in Trollworld!  And the Jedi are basically space samurai.  These warrior-monk, I envision will have a special sword that is crafted for them (not a katana) that probably has some kind enchantment.  Maybe they earn the right to get it (so the sword is given after a certain level).  I like the idea of a special armor also.  Not sure what kind.  And they would have their own unique spells (healing being one of them).  Hmmmmm....more thought needs to be had on this. 

[sonofliefeld]

There's a T&T variant/clone(?) Out there called Lances & Labyrinths which has clerics and paladins with their own spell like abilities

Maybe you could mine some ideas from that

There is a link to it contained in this blog post about it

blog.retroroleplaying.com/2010/07/lances-labyrinths-free-tunnels-trolls.html

[ElvenScribe]

Interesting! I had not heard of that. Thank you.

Addendum:  Just down loaded it.  And it looks really very intersting!  I'm sure I'll find some good source material there.  Thanks again!

[tp]

Yeah, a paladin's spell book would be really cool. Maybe a paladin could be a specialist for any of the attributes? The spells could be kept relitivily low powered to balance the fact the paladin also has some warrior-esque skills.

[ElvenScribe]

Feb 13, 2017 2:33:26 GMT -5 tp said:

Yeah, a paladin's spell book would be really cool. Maybe a paladin could be a specialist for any of the attributes? The spells could be kept relitivily low powered to balance the fact the paladin also has some warrior-esque skills.

My thoughts exactly! I envision the spells being things like combat enhancers, morale boosters for allies, blessing, warding against evil (a version of the Oh Go Away spell), healing (like a Poor Baby spell) etc. A paladin spell book could be really interesting.   I'll have to ponder how to deal with the armor decrease on DEX that leads to a decrease in spell casting ability. But maybe, these "spells" are different in that they are "prayers" or "miracles" and don't have a DEX limitation. Hmmmmm...interesting.

[zanshin]

That kind of paladin looks like a rogue to me

Luck = favour of the gods for them.

Maybe let their order give them access to paladin spells. Normally Rogues have to go sleazing and begging and scrounging for spells - a Paladin would acquire them from their order, but only Paladin appropriate ones- healing, warding , divination and so on.

Paladins could also be paragons - they are supposed to be rare after all.

One way of giving them a different feel would be to have any spell requirements based off Charisma not Int. Their sheer divine spark gives them spell access, not their cleverness.

Maybe give them some kind of warrior bonus - as a game balance thing, their spellcasting is not as flexible as rogues. Maybe give them the d6 damage bonus with a blessed weapon, but only that , and only one weapon at a time - sanctified to them.

Part of the warrior 'bonus' in T&T is that they are not having to spread their stats - they don't care about Wiz or Int or any other stat that does not fit their character concept, so they can be ubermensch or uberfrau.

[trrebmahl]

I like the idea of a Paladin spell book too. And I like the eastern feel, warrior-monk idea you mention too. I'd love to see what you come up with another elf.

[tp]

One of the difficulties with paladins in T&T would be the lack of dieties. If all paladins had the same focus it could lack variety. I suppose a way forward would be to have half a dozen templates over which people could pay their own flavour. For example you might be able to build a paladin allied to a god of law, who could have access to suitable spells. The trappings of these spells are then left to the player. Being t&t there should also be evil gods.

[trrebmahl]

True, there are no clerics, deities or pantheons in the DT&T rules. And I think it's totally legit to just have a game with no deities. But since everyone's T&T world is different, I suspect there may be a few out there that include gods and religion, even if the gods don't take an active role in the game. Ken mentioned at some point, (I can't remember where, maybe the old Trollhalla, his blog, or buried in the rules somewhere), that what passes for gods in T&T are actually very high level wizards that the less powerful venerate and mistake for gods. I like this idea, and it squares somewhat with the idea of godhood I am trying to wrap my head around in the Malazan world I'm writing about in another post. In the Malazan books the process of becoming a god is called "ascending" and it happens when a mortal becomes more and more powerful to the point where they become immortal and recognized by "normal" people as a god. The gods can share some of their immense power with their devotees. I could see some variant of this working in T&T and working with the idea of both Paladins and Clerics (with Clerics being a kind of sub set of the Wizard Type). One of the cool things I like about the Malazan version of godhood is the they are always vying for power and the pantheon is always in flux, with new gods arriving and old one eclipsed or cast down. Plus all of the gods are just really unique.

[ElvenScribe]

I like that Trollworld doesn't yield to the all too prevalent trope of having a pantheon of anthropomorphic deities. That's one of the reasons why I am intrigued by a more Eastern inspired paladin in that they would not be inherently dependent on a deity as such. On the supernatural, yes. But, there is supernatural occurring all over Troll World all the time in the form of magic etc. They could simply identify with concepts or symbols and tap into supernatural sources for it. For example, you could have paladins that serve concepts of the four elements (fire, water, air and earth).

  Of course, the obvious question is how would they be different than wizards, warriors and rogues?  Well, they would be warrior'ish, "magic users" and yet not have the varied prowess of warriors or the magical variety of wizards.  I guess they would essentially be a varied type of rogue. 

I like the idea of them having a "blessed weapon". That is definitely samurai-like (a samurai's sword was everything!) or Jedi-like. And with that weapon (type) alone would they have the warriors +1d6/level (or whatever warrior advantage the GM determines for their world). But they also gain access to a specific list of prayers/chants ("spells"). Hmmmm, writing as I go I think I rather like the idea of the 4 elements. So, just off the top of my head, I might allocate the following blessed weapon for each element: Fire: Sword (As swords are forged from fire, can be any type: 2-H, broadword, short sword, saber, etc), Water: Various hafted or pole arms (For these are what are useful in water, ESPECIALLY tridents, could also be spears etc. Think what is useful in water. What would Mer-people be armed with?) ,Wind: Bow (For bows cast their arrows upon the wind and trust the wind to guide the arrow to it's mark, any type: short bow, long bow, composite bow, whatever), Earth: Bludgeon! (For bludgeons reprent the power and strength of the earth, Could be warhammers, clubs, maces, etc). This would allow significant variety in weapons and still be a limitation so as to be in balance with the other T&T "types" (I always want to say classes). Also, a paladin should only have one weapon at a time. It would be "blessed" by his/her community. He/she would take great pride and value in the weapon. If it were broken they would grieve its loss. If it were lost they would try to get it back if possible (which could be the motivation for an adventure unto itself). Even if the weapon is just a mundane/non-magical weapon they would still place great value on it. Having said that, all blessed weapons should have some kind of supernatural quality. As I think of it, this blessing could simply give the weapon an additional +1-3 damage. Something simple, but still above and beyond the norm. Also, I think all blessed weapons should effect discorporal beings. And thinking further, they probably do more damage vs. "evil" creatures. For elemental paladins, "evil" takes on more of an Eastern view which would be anything against the balance of the world. It could also be against beings of the opposite element: fire vs. water (and vice versa), wind vs. ??, well...obviously this will take some fleshing out.

  An elemental paladin would be allowed to upgrade a weapon, if the weapon fits the type and is not inherently evil (e.g. a sword with a bound demon might be a problem). I guess it would depend on the situation, a paladin should not be defenseless. Weapons do break, get lost, or paladins do get disarmed. They should be allowed to adopt a new weapon (if, again, it's in the appropriate class) however temporarily. But even with a temporary weapon, it would require something like, an hour long ritual (which could be problematic in the middle of a dungeon!). Furthermore, once the adventure is over, the paladin will need to take the new weapon back to temple/holy place, have at least one other from their order gather with him/her, and bless the new weapon properly (which covers upgrades). This would be a longer affair, something like sun up to sun down, etc. It seems appropriate that paladins would have a name for their weapon.

 Also, I think that paladins should be allowed to wear armor. And their special "spells" will not rely on dex as such. So, the armor restriction will not get in the way. They might, however, require more time (which seems like a fitting trade off). Which brings us to spells. Each elemental order would have their own specific spells. But they would probably be similar in that there would be protective spells, combat spells, healing spells, etc (just with different effects like wall of fire, mists that hide the paladin (air), healing breath (air), would cauterizing (fire), strength of the earth, wind buffet, and more and more. 

One more limitation, could be that these paladins (like all stereotypical paladins) would be expected to adhere to the tenets of their order.  Even though they are espouse the values of the elements (which could be construed as more neutral in aspect) that does not mean they are not altruistic.  They would certainly view themselves as "good" and seeking the welfare of others.  Each order should have their own slant on their tenets that, if the paladin breaks the rules, they will probably be eject out of their order.  At which point, I guess they would have the option of becoming a regular rogue (without the martial prowess with their weapon and without access to the paladin spells.  This is all up to the GM's discretion.  Perhaps, the order might have leniency on the paladin depending upon the discretion.  A dishonored paladin, in itself sounds like an excellent opportunity for role playing.  Would they be embittered towards the order?  Or would they be more forgiving and still try to keep some of the tenets, though on a more personal (and less powerful) level?  Opportunities abound.         

Further, as I think of the possibility of a paladin being disarmed, and they are limited to a blessed weapon, it seems reasonable that their orders may have developed systems of unarmed combat.  That way the paladin can defend themselves while they until they can retrieve or get another weapon.  For example, real world samurai developed grappling unarmed combat for just such an occasion (which later became the source of the more modern Japanese martial arts of Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido and Judo).  And wouldn't it be cool if these unarmed styles had techniques that reflected the element to which each order is devoted?  So, Earth and Fire would have more "hard" (strikes of hands, knees, knees, feet etc.) and water and wind could have "softer" techniques (grappling, throws, holds).   

This keeps growing.  I'll have to flesh this out into an article.  

[ProfGremlin]

Feb 14, 2017 5:24:53 GMT -5 tp said:

One of the difficulties with paladins in T&T would be the lack of dieties. If all paladins had the same focus it could lack variety.

I offer two quotes for consideration:

"When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm talking about God?"
~ Shepherd Book, Serenity

Sinclair and Delenn see Gajic's body off. "It's hard," Sinclair says, "to spend your whole life looking for something and never find it."

"Are you speaking of Aldous, or someone else?" asks Delenn.

Sinclair looks at her for a moment. "Aldous," he finally answers.

"There you are wrong. He found what he was looking for. What we are all looking for. A reason."

"For what?"

"Everything, Commander. Everything."

~ Babylon 5, Grail

Perhaps it's not what we believe but that we believe.

[tp]

[Source] ProfGremlin said:

Perhaps it's not what we believe but that we believe.

Absolutely. What I meant was any paladin system could not be too specific or it would clash with people's existing setting. There can be no 'Blessing of Tiamak, plus 15 to all combat rolls versus followers of Randell-Doom.' For most people there are no Tiamak and Randell-Doom. I believe that in the most venerable tradition of T&T the flavour of the spells should be left up to the reader/player. Even something as generic as the four elements wouldn't really fit with my T&T world. So the above rule could be 'Diety's blessing: +15 to all combat rolls against any one race or type.' That could then be taken by a follower of fire and applied against followers of water.It could be taken by followers of Umbejezzal the god of light and applied to undead, or what ever fits the players idea of what his paladin's aims are.

[ElvenScribe]

I am intrigued with this conversation about paladin's belief. And I think I may have gone too far afield with the idea of elemental paladins, only to say that they are an example of what's possible. I think for too long players of paladins (are perhaps game designers) have been conditioned into thinking of paladins as some form of the historic Knights Templar. Which, to me, that is only one strain of possibility. T&T seems to encourage imaginative characters and allows for less restriction in building them. I would do so with paladins as well.

Having said that, I think the point that paladins stand out and apart from the general populace is a good one (I'm paraphrasing). Because I think that they should. Ultimately, they stand out by their belief. And whether they are literal paragons (in the T&T type sense) they are paragons of belief, whatever that belief entails.

[ElvenScribe]

And now just for fun....I found the following blog page that has a fun post that assigns D&D classes to each of the Myers Briggs personality types: ciarvella.com/2013/10/26/myers-briggs-and-rpg-classes/

And what I find extra amusing is that my personality type comes out as "paladin", hence my thought to post this here. Care to share what your class is?