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Post by mahrundl on Mar 22, 2017 5:35:22 GMT -5
khaboom, what a great house rule! So very T & T! With regard to a 1 and 2 'fumble', it occurs to me that just because you fumbled doesn't have to mean that you completely failed. You may succeed but with unintended side effects, which to my mind is a much more appropriate outcome for someone who has the attribute in question massively higher than needed. Example: Hrudnir the Mighty, barbarian prince, has a Strength of 73. Sneaking up to a castle in the dead of night, he attempts to lift a portcullis out of the way so that he and his band can loot, pillage, and burn the place. He only needs to make a level 4 saving roll, but the dice come up with the dreaded 1-2 combination. Hrudnir, being extremely mighty, does in fact lift the portcullis. In fact, he lifts it rather more enthusiastically than is desirable - the portcullis smashes free of the gatehouse and crashes to the cobblestones with a resounding 'clang!'. Instead of surprising and quickly overpowering the small force of night guards, the barbarian hordelet soon find themselves facing several companies of trained soldiers, a smaller squadron of elite warriors, and a 30' tall captain whose glowing purple visage is rendered only slightly less fearsome by the fluffy bunny slippers that he was wearing when the attackers arrived... Certainly, a fumble will often mean failure (and the associated painful demise or ignominious defeat), but not always.
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darrght
4th Level Troll
Wow, I'm a 4th Level Troll!
Posts: 441
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Post by darrght on Mar 22, 2017 15:16:21 GMT -5
I just felt I should chime in here to say this, so far, short thread really does sum up T&T for me. A fairly straightforward question but lots of excellent ideas on how to answer it. I'm more of a 'feel the vibe' kinda GM when it comes to working our SR levels but already some interesting ideas that I may incorporate into my games/solos.
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dekh
5th Level Troll
dekh by Grumlahk
Posts: 622
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Post by dekh on Mar 23, 2017 5:53:20 GMT -5
The game lives for those magical 1/2 dice rolls - that's when the GM can explode the game about the players' heads! I have been running with a house rule of if a player rolls 30 or above on the dice they gain a talent or a spell based on what they just excelled at. It is a huge hit with players. Last night a dwarf rolled 4 doubles in a row when looking for a well in the town of Roundsquare and gained a talent for water divination - which very soon led to a confrontation with orangu-kin peeing behind a wall... Love it. Have an old school Exalt. I think: The odds of rolling a fumble are 1 in 18. The odds are pretty high that in a party of 3 or 4 there will be at least one fumble in a session. The odds of rolling a double are 1 in 6. the odds of rolling 2 doubles in a row are 1 in 36. the odds of rolling 3 doubles in a row are 1 in 216. the odds of rolling 4 doubles in a row are 1 in 1,296. I feel that dT&T is geared towards pretty rapid character advancement (but still low life expectancy). I would be tempted to bestow the talent after just 2 doubles and make the SR an automatic success just like a 3 is an automatic fail. And it should bestow a single new talent in a fairly active session. It feels right to me. It feels Heroic.
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Post by khaboom on Mar 23, 2017 12:03:29 GMT -5
Ok Dekh - I'm running a 3 hour T&T game for a group of 8 D&D players at Easter and I will use the 2 doubles approach. With so many players I am confident I will get to bestow a talent in the session. I go along with the earlier critical fumble comment too - a c/f puts a pc in a place of real peril rather than kills them outright - or there is a weird side effect if it wasn't a life threatening moment. I still use INT SRs for wizards to cast spells and when they roll a c/f have them cast a random spell of the same level. I'm still waiting for the day a wizard goes to cast Healing Feeling on a buddy but tosses off a Blasting Power in a moment of blind panic...
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Post by jeffepp on Mar 23, 2017 23:54:50 GMT -5
I'm liking how this went from a simple question, to full on game design brainstorm session! How about this: If you get the second DARO, you get a 1 point Talent, or addition to an existing Talent IF YOU ARE USING IT for this SR. If you get the third DARO, it's 3 points. Fourth, and maybe 6 points.
On failures and fumbles, here's some advice I came across in the recent past. First, general failures of a check of some sort, like SRs in T&T, aren't necessarily a "you screwed up" thing. Rather, they are often a "before you could finish, in came the..." situation. Time ran out, or something beyond the ability of the character to control happens. This doesn't really change the outcome of failing, but it does put it in a different light, especially when dealing with young players who may not handle personal failure well.
Second, is to do lasting damage, but not lethal damage, on a critical failure. This came up in a GM advice session at RadCon, last month. With T&T, this could be a simple halving of a stat. Or you could give them a kind of "anti" talent, where they are at -5 to do anything where they would need that finger they lost.
As to the OP question, I would have a list of all the PC's stats handy in front of you. If you figure that a normal "average" stat is around 12, and a 1st Level SR has a target number of 20, and the most common roll of 2D6 is 7, you can see that the "sweet spot" target number is around 6-8 above the stat. So, if the stat is 31, a SR4 (tn 35) or lower is fumble fail only, SR5 (tn 40) is difficult but possible without DAROs, and SR6 (tn 45) will need doubles just to make it. Talents can tip this over a bit, but that's their point, as well. And, if you give them an SR that's just out of reach, as stated by someone above, it can just make them think of a way to lower that threshold.
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Karl
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 142
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Post by Karl on Mar 24, 2017 1:56:36 GMT -5
I really like the list idea and that's the one I'm running with. A set list of SR's and a description of how hard that number means.
I dislike the idea of targeting the sweet spot (though I do understand the benefits of doing so)simply because creating a ever moving goal post for the player characters negates their accomplishments. Just because a character is stronger shouldn't mean the goal post is moved to lift something it should just become easier for her to make that SR.
However that's basically what I'm doing anyway as the pc's gain levels and higher scores. The higher level challenge will just be far more heavy/distant or difficult compared to the lower level challenges.
This does bring me to another question however.
My player characters delver party consists of two players each playing one character. In my case one plays a warrior and the other a wizard, most of the time. When creating adventures for them with the dT&T rules I have discovered that it can be difficult creating SR's because if they change characters the pc's can have such large fluctuation in secondary stats that some SR goals become impossible.
In other words if there is no character who has increases her strength as one of her main stats all the strength SR's for the 6th level adventure become impossible(or nearly so) for the group of delvers.
How do you handle it in your games? Do you have moving goal posts for SR's or do you simply have challenges that might not be possible for delvers lacking in those abilities? Or....do you simply create multiple ways of getting around those challenges? Like if you place a closed porticalis in the way that takes a SR4 strength to lift, do you also place secondary way to bypass the gate nearby that requires a different SR roll to accomplish the same thing? Like perhaps a wall nearby that if it can be scaled SR3 to scale the wall and once up in the room above a SR 2 Int roll to activate the mechanism to raise the portcullis.
So far I have been trying to create multiple ways past as many obstacles as i can but sometimes it can be very challenging for me to do so.
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Post by zanshin on Mar 24, 2017 12:57:17 GMT -5
If a character faces a challenge that would be effortless for their stats I do not make them roll unless there is a real chance of peril if they would mess up.
If they are in combat it is all SRs if they want to stunt, regardless of stat level.combat is to chaotic to take anything for granted.
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Post by mahrundl on Mar 24, 2017 16:38:08 GMT -5
I'd say that you leave it to the players' ingenuity. Wizards get it easier, since magic can accomplish many things (Wink Wing would completely negate the need to make the level 4 Strength SR that you mention, for instance), but in general, there will be more than one way to solve a problem even without magic.
For a portcullis: tunnel under it; climb over it; tie a rope to it and get your mule to provide the muscle; cut through it; burn through it; enhance your effective strength with a lever and fulcrum; call out and see if there is someone who can be convinced to let you through; and so on. No magic is necessarily needed for any of those, although some methods will require time, equipment, or both. But a 10' pole and a few decent sized rocks should let you lift it enough to wriggle under it, and that's all that you really need.
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Post by craulabesh on Apr 10, 2017 14:10:40 GMT -5
Hi, very nice thread, I must admit, i've stolen many good ideas from here around (credited!). About the Daro: in a one-shot-game or convention game you could set number to roll to 25 instead of 30 (which maybe fits better in campaign play). Or make a competition: the one who rolled the most in the session sets the highscore and gains a talent. Beat it to get immediately a talent or at least roll up to 3 points below to get a talent. Lets see how it turns out and where it settles..
I've been toying around with another idea: to have a variable fumble number. If we say, you have to roll at least the target number / 5 to not automatically fumble, it means the Gamemaster can control difficulty better perhaps (if he finds this a problem). A L9 saving roll requires a 60 as roll result added to attribute value. But you would need a 12 to not fumble. If you factor in doubles it is around 7% success rate IF you have the attribute at around 50. So L1 saving rolls are at least really possible, but L10 is really hard even with great stats. It could be helpful in groups with different attribute values maybe (haven't played in such a group composition).
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Post by zanshin on Apr 10, 2017 16:22:11 GMT -5
Hi, very nice thread, I must admit, i've stolen many good ideas from here around (credited!). About the Daro: in a one-shot-game or convention game you could set number to roll to 25 instead of 30 (which maybe fits better in campaign play). Or make a competition: the one who rolled the most in the session sets the highscore and gains a talent. Beat it to get immediately a talent or at least roll up to 3 points below to get a talent. Lets see how it turns out and where it settles.. I've been toying around with another idea: to have a variable fumble number. If we say, you have to roll at least the target number / 5 to not automatically fumble, it means the Gamemaster can control difficulty better perhaps (if he finds this a problem). A L9 saving roll requires a 60 as roll result added to attribute value. But you would need a 12 to not fumble. If you factor in doubles it is around 7% success rate IF you have the attribute at around 50. So L1 saving rolls are at least really possible, but L10 is really hard even with great stats. It could be helpful in groups with different attribute values maybe (haven't played in such a group composition). Thats really neat. How about allowing a couple of modifications? For each multiple your attribute is of the total target number, halve the fumble number , down to base 3. If you are talented, you reduce the number of the fumble by 1/expertise level, again to base 3. That way off the wall stats do help you avoid fumbles , as do the skills that pay the bills, while still mostly retaining a more difficult target number for all saves of level 4 or more.
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Post by craulabesh on Apr 11, 2017 15:32:53 GMT -5
I'm still unsure and have to playtest this. I see the effect as imposing boundaries for what is achieveable for mortal beings. With increasing fumble values it's not only the value of an attribute that matters, but more that of the roll. Level 4 SRs are kind of a border. If you have an attribute value of 28 or higher, L4-SRs (target number 35) succeed with around 60%. This is a sweet spot. If you want more of your SRs to suceed than fail, keep to L1–L4 SRs (if you have the appropriate value in the attribute). Now with a high value you wouldnt be guaranteed to succeed in difficult tasks. From L5-SRs upwards you also have to roll good. At L9 (target number 60) you have to roll a DARO to succeed, so we are below of a 17%-chance (even below half of it, not every DARO surpasses a 11, which would be needed here), at L16 (target number 95) you need two DAROs and roll over 18. So what changes: if you roll high, only then you can achieve high SR-levels. Then you have to look at your attribute value to see which level you achieved.
Gustav the Weakling has STR 35 but he rolls a double 6 and the a double 5 and then a 9, in total a 31! Its a 66! It would be a L10 SR.
Strong Klaus has STR 60, rolls a 5 and a 1. Added together he as a 66, it would beat a L10 SR. But as he rolled a 6, he can only achieve SR with target numbers up to 6*5=30. Target number 30 is a L3 SR. So Gustav far surpassed Klaus! To beat Gustav, Klaus has to beat target number 65, he must roll at least 13 and needs a DARO! But even if he rolls double 4s and then a 5 and 1, he has a 12 and a result of 72. But with a rolled 12 he can only achieve a SR with target number 12*5=60 = L9. So he would not beat Gustav with this roll.
If both had the same roll, Strong Klaus will always beat with it the same SR as Gustav the weakling's level or up to 3 levels higher (as Klaus' STR value is three "SR levels" higher than Gustav's).
If you have a really high attribute score for that SR, then you only really see its effect the very few times you roll some DAROs and high rolls after. In this case the roll frees up the higher difficulties of SR levels. In these cases masters with really high attribute values show themselves.
Strong Klaus now rolls the same roll as Gustav. Its 31+ his STR value of 60 = 91! This is a Level 15 SR! Gustav's jaws drop.
Usually with this system any player will, with rolls of 5–9, unlock difficulty levels of L2–6 –– the lower when their attributes are around 20, the higher when they are around 35 or higher. Attribute levels above 35 are for masters and show in some of their actions (DAROs or high rolls). With values even below 50 they then achive SRs of level L7 up to L9 sometimes. Even if they have better values, it shows seldomly.
If you modify the fumble score even more, you get other effects. but a small modifier like ±2 could discern halflings making STR SRs to highly magical beings casting magic or godly heroes.
To use this system, you maybe better have a list with SR levels, fumble score and target value.
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