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Post by sarahnewton on Aug 19, 2017 9:31:10 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I've recently been playing dT&T and trying to work out what to do with the Take That You Fiend spell. Basically, it seems to me the spell was originally designed to work against MR critters, against which it does an admirable job. However, against CON critters or (worse still) against player characters, it's basically an instakill spell.
- TTYF always works against its target.
- It does CON damage equal to Wizard's IQ x level.
- Armour doesn't protect you.
That means that even a simple 1st level 15 IQ Wizard can do 15 CON damage to a player character in a single round, through armour, with no chance to avoid. And that's for 6 WIZ, or 5 with a staff. If that doesn't kill you, he can do the same the next round. At second level, that becomes 30 CON damage. It's a total killer of a spell.
What do you do about this in your games? Simply preventing the spell from being used seems a bit lame. I thought about maybe halving its effectiveness when affecting CON (given that an MR is kind of notionally equal to double adds, it kind of makes sense to halve MR damage when that damage is being applied directly to attributes). But even that doesn't take away the sweeping total killiness of the spell. Maybe allow a SPD SR to avoid its effects? Or allow magical armour to protect you? Or allow the target to select which attributes it damages, maybe spreading the damage between "physical" attributes?
What I'm trying to create is a situation where an NPC Wizard bad guy becomes a challenge to a party of PCs, rather than a totally overwhelming threat even at low level who can basically just kill a character every round with no chance of avoidance.
Or is that part of the mutually assured destruction of wizardry in T&T? Wizards can basically just kill you straight off if you go up against them directly?
Cheers!
Sarah
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Post by khaboom on Aug 19, 2017 14:05:57 GMT -5
I get what you mean...
My thoughts:
1) You have to cast at L2 to double the INT-based damage and that means doubling the WIZ cost eg L3 TTYF for a L3 wizard costs 18 or 15 with a staff. Burning 15 WIZ leaves you pretty vulnerable to the rest of a party which is why many a NPC wizard wouldn't do it. I play that Oh Go Away last much longer than 1 round - it is often a much better better at a WIZ cost of just 5, with it becoming more effective as stats rise.
2) I stick to 7.5 rules requiring an INT SR at the level of the spell.
3) I stick to the 7.5 WIZ-resistance rule. meaning that as you burn WIZ it becomes harder for you to hit next time AND you are easier to hit (incidentally, neither 2 nor 3 slow my games down at all).
4) I play with Ken's idea of sigils e.g. you can buy protective sigils from the Wizard's Guild (a one-use sigil being a lot cheaper than a permanently enchanted version) - a good way for warriors to spend loot.
I think there are plenty of ways to stop this being a big factor but a GM alwaays has this up his or her sleeve. A powerful NPC wizard doesn't have to be a psychopath and there is often a subtly to what they want or danger to them if they are gung-ho. If PCs are offensive and stupid though, they will get zapped to Smithereens!
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Post by sonofliefeld on Aug 19, 2017 14:16:15 GMT -5
Let one or more of the player characters find weapons made of meteorological iron which can (at the GMs discretion) disrupt magic/spell casting up to 5th level and even totally negate low level spells effects on the possessor/wielder
I don't have the book in front of me but its mentioned in the section about bigger, better weapon modifications
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Post by sarahnewton on Aug 20, 2017 2:55:59 GMT -5
Excellent suggestions, guys, thank you!  I'm going to playtest a slightly restricted version of TTYF. Basically, it works exactly as intended against MR critters, as I see no problem there. Against CON critters and PCs, I'm saying it does half damage. The rationale here is that MR basically equals double your adds, so (in my loosey-goosey logic) something which damages MR could be seen as damaging a single attribute by half that amount. Then, I'm also saying that opponents with attributes get a SPD SR at the level of the casting Wizard to dodge the heck out of the way, avoiding the spell entirely. Finally, I'm saying that magical armour protects against the damage - "Shield Me, Shield You" is a 4th level spell and protects equal to your IQ, so it's a mitigating effect perhaps helping survivability rather than an avoidance strategy. Hopefully that will retain Wizards as opponents who are actually deadly and scary, especially if they're a level or two higher than you, but at the same time avoid the situation where a 1st level Wizard with a staff can basically wipe out an entire party. I'll let you know how it goes! Cheers, Sarah |
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Post by khaboom on Aug 21, 2017 11:56:52 GMT -5
Write it up when you can, Loosey-Goosey |
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Post by gaptooth on Aug 21, 2017 12:13:52 GMT -5
Somewhat related: Last year I scoured the text for a complete understanding of Deluxe TTYF. Yes, a powered-up TTYF is deadly, but: - It can only hit one delver at a time. - It can cost a lot of WIZ. - So it's unlikely to be the spell a Wizard uses round after round. Powering up TTYF is not usually a good move for PC or NPC Wizards. Sure, you can give NPCs any arbitrary amount of WIZ, and that would empower them to use it multiple times before wearing themselves out. But even then, they have to deal with the rest of the party while they are just standing there swinging a 2d weapon in defense. There are a bunch of other spells they might have used instead to change the battlefield to make it harder for the party to hit them. If you're statting up your NPC Wizard like a delver instead of using a Monster Rating, you might want to imagine how their abilities started out and how many Adventure Points they invested in their abilities. Pumping INT, WIZ, and DEX would leave them vulnerable to even a level 1 PC Wizard killing them in one shot with TTYF, and they might forgo overwhelming WIZ to develop a little hardiness. And they don't have perfect knowledge of your party. They might spend their WIZ casting TTYF on the character with high CON, and then have that character still dealing damage against them. Or, they might waste it on a character wearing an amulet of meteoric iron. But there's no reason to assume NPC casters *must* have the same spells as Guild apprentices. Maybe they were Rogues, or full-fledged Wizards who got their training elsewhere. Give them their own repertoire of spells and abilities based on the tactics you'd like to highlight when they come into play. You can even give them a Monster Rating, and have their spells triggered by Spite Damage instead: Yzor the Fell MR 45, Spinning staff technique (5d+23). He can spend spite damage to cast the following spells in combat: 1// Sword-swallowing spell. Pick any enemy at close range. Yzor swallows her weapon. If the character makes a L2 SR on STR, she keeps her grip on her sword, but her whole arm is in Yzor's throat. Yuck! 2// OGA. Every enemy within a 100' flees unless their CHA+INT+LCK is greater than 45. 3// Finish him! Yzor casts TTYF for 45 damage at 1 enemy. All that being said, I say using TTYF against the delvers is fair game. They know that the spell is available to Level 1 Wizards. If they know they are in a wizard's lair, they should have taken precautions. They should have done their research, go there when he's not home, evade the Wizard, even parley or befriend him. If they are in a place where they don't know a wizard is wandering, they need to keep their eyes open—and the GM should provide clues in the environment for them to watch out for. Losing a character in any game sucks, but they should know the danger, and in T&T it doesn't take a whole session to create a new character. Even with all the options in Deluxe, you should have a new delver in 5 minutes, 10 minutes if you're shopping for gear. |
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Post by mgtremaine on Aug 21, 2017 18:15:25 GMT -5
TTYF has always been the Wizards "orbital cannon" of choice. In the first games it was report by Ken and others that monsters soon starting having magic rings that deflected TTYF. It continues to this day. You can do your 1/2 damage vs CON no problem. You can make sigils that will absorb 1 TTYF, you can create magical armor that works vs TTYF and other such magical damage. Just remember that if you "nerf" Wizards then everyone will just run a Fighter with a Arblast... (Until they join Order99's game and get laser pistols.)
I also highly encourage developing other spells that allow Wizards to counter such spells and set up fun Wizards duels. (I think posted about that somewhere on this board.)
-Mike
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Post by sarahnewton on Aug 22, 2017 3:53:07 GMT -5
TTYF has always been the Wizards "orbital cannon" of choice. In the first games it was report by Ken and others that monsters soon starting having magic rings that deflected TTYF. It continues to this day. You can do your 1/2 damage vs CON no problem. You can make sigils that will absorb 1 TTYF, you can create magical armor that works vs TTYF and other such magical damage. Just remember that if you "nerf" Wizards then everyone will just run a Fighter with a Arblast... (Until they join Order99's game and get laser pistols.) I also highly encourage developing other spells that allow Wizards to counter such spells and set up fun Wizards duels. (I think posted about that somewhere on this board.) -Mike Hi Mike, I definitely like the idea of Wizards being d**n scary - that was always my take home from Buffalo Castle, the first RPG product I ever bought. Okay, that was a 17th level Wizard, but... *runs for the hills*.  The only thing I'm trying to avoid is the lumpy and rather binary play you can get when playing with a Wizard using TTYF against other characters (rather than against MR monsters, where I don't think there's an issue). I was recently playing a 2nd level Wizard in Arena of Khazan (IQ 14), against a single 2nd level Dwarf (CON 28), and trying to winkle out the gaming sweet spot. In the rules-as-written, the Wizard could just kill the Dwarf in one go: L2 TTYF, 28 damage, *BLAM*. Not very satisfying, but the logical thing for the Wizard to do. However, if the Wizard *didn't* insta-kill, then the Dwarf would likely win, and quick--like a round or two--multiple Vorpal Blades notwithstanding. I ended up concluding that a L2 Dwarf with 28 CON and 11/22 armour was actually *very much* the tougher end of a L2 opponent (far more, say, than an Orc with MR30), and I should probably expect a L2 human Wizard to die quickly when going toe-to-toe with no backup. That seems good swords & sorcery. I'm still tweaking. Right now I'm testing the following TTYF: - Damage vs MR remains equal to IQ, no change there. - Damage vs CON is *probably* half that. Otherwise TTYF is a total instakill spell vs PCs. - Against attributed targets, the target gets to make a SPD SR to "dodge". If successful, they take only 1/2 damage, but even if they fail their own HPT is halved. - Magic armour protects (inc armour spells). Bear in mind I'm not trying to "balance" anything here - I'm quite happy with T&T being deadly and occasionally OMIGOD, that's fine. I'm just trying to run a version of this ubiquitous L1 spell that's basically T&T's signature spell that *doesn't* immediately insta-kill the entire party if they come up against a 1st level wizard and a henchman or three. I realise there are ways to work around the deadliness of TTYF as it's written, but I'd prefer to tweak it so that it isn't the spell *everyone* relies on all the time and instead give the other plenty cool spells some spotlight time. Cheers! Sarah |
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Post by mgtremaine on Aug 22, 2017 8:34:46 GMT -5
- Against attributed targets, the target gets to make a SPD SR to "dodge". If successful, they take only 1/2 damage, but even if they fail their own HPT is halved. Sarah I quoted the above because it illustrates the most important GM tool/feature in Tunnels and Trolls. If you have not read Zanshin's Dare to DARO article in TrollZine 1 you should. He basically codifies what has always been in the rule base, the ability to use the Saving Roll system to preserve playability. Give your PC the ability to Dodge, to get behind cover to do almost anything they can think of to save their lives in reaction to overwhelming damage. Semi related I found the post... geez 2010 :/ ... Not a lot there just an idea which I obviously never turned into an article. trollbridge.proboards.com/thread/1819/magicI like all your ideas and you are certainly on the right track and asking the right questions. -Mike |
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zanshin
13th Level Troll
Posts: 2,705
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Post by zanshin on Aug 22, 2017 10:37:34 GMT -5
One simple fix that would help characters is to treat TTYF like a Gunne from 5e - give them a LK or WIZ SR and reduce the damage by an amount that they exceeded the save by. Not very different to Sarah Newtons suggestion of half damage, but it would scale as Luck/Wiz scales. I used this in my T&T meets Earthdawn rules which I can forward to anyone with an interest in such a beast |
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Post by gaptooth on Aug 22, 2017 11:02:53 GMT -5
I'm just trying to run a version of this ubiquitous L1 spell that's basically T&T's signature spell that *doesn't* immediately insta-kill the entire party if they come up against a 1st level wizard and a henchman or three. I have never seen this happen, and I can't see it happening with any meaningful frequency. A level 1 Wizard—even with TARO—doesn't have a lot of WIZ to spend. 72% of all level 1 Wizards (newly rolled) would have less than 13 WIZ. A Wizard with 12 WIZ and a staff ordinaire can cast TTYF twice before resting. Fewer than 18% of level 1 Wizards will have 15 WIZ, letting them cast TTYF thrice before resting. If the Wizard is just a serial killer, and if he is confident than none of his enemies have a CON higher than 19 (damage that fewer than 2% of level 1 Wizards might dish out with a TTYF), it can happen. But when it comes down to it, they almost always have other goals and better options available. If they are raiding the lair of Serial Killer Wizard with Goons, and they don't take precautions, they deserve whatever they get. And if the players have a level 1 Wizard who thinks TTYF is the best thing since sliced bread, you can show them the downside by having more enemies show up—or other obstacles for which spells are handy—before they get a chance to rest. Wizards at level 2+ might have more WIZ to blow, but the other spells available will give them even better options than cracking out TTYFs round after round. But don't let me dissuade you from hacking the game if it's a problem that really turns up in actual play. Hacking is the T&T spirit! And you will learn a lot about the inner clockwork of the game by doing it! My own hack is this: When a delver drops to zero CON, they don't get negative hit points. Instead, they make a SR on LCK at the current dungeon level. If they make it, they are unconscious, but they might be revived if someone can heal them. If they fail, they are dead. Good luck with your playtesting! Please let us know how it goes! |
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Post by khaboom on Aug 22, 2017 14:03:05 GMT -5
Great that after 40 years we can still get so much diverse opinion about the game's most basic spell - who wudda thunk that?
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Post by joelmarler on Aug 22, 2017 15:22:35 GMT -5
Does TTYF avoid armour? I don't remember reading that.
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Post by gaptooth on Aug 22, 2017 15:47:32 GMT -5
Does TTYF avoid armour? I don't remember reading that. , at least since 4th edition. 1st edition is ambiguous. |
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Post by gaptooth on Aug 22, 2017 20:20:38 GMT -5
One simple fix that would help characters is to treat TTYF like a Gunne from 5e - give them a LK or WIZ SR and reduce the damage by an amount that they exceeded the save by. I like this. It preserves the implication that TTYF isn't a mere physical attack that you could just dodge: It can only be dispersed by your inherent connection to magic. It also incentivizes Warriors not to treat WIZ as a dump stat. It feels like the SR level should be based on the caster's Intelligence, but for simplicity's sake you could just roll at the caster's level.
Another option, and I just thought of this so you are about to hear it for the first time, would be to give the target a SR on WIZ. If the target makes it, they take normal TTYF damage. If they fail, they drop dead immediately! If the player complains, politely tell them they don't exist anymore.  |
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