[5.x] Okay, I'll Buy WIZ But SPD?

[Piper]

I've thought about it for a bit. The idea of WIZ has grown on me and I'll be adding it to my version of T&T. But SPD?

Have you adopted this rule for your campaign? What does it offer the basic character generation does not?

[sonofliefeld]

think the first time i came across the speed attribute (before 5.5 edition) was in the Arena of Khazan solo

[Piper]

Jan 19, 2019 17:41:06 GMT -5 sonofliefeld said:

think the first time i came across the speed attribute (before 5.5 edition) was in the Arena of Khazan solo

I haven't had the pleasure of playing that one, yet. I'll check it out ... perhaps it will shed light on why KSA (et al.) saw fit to put it in the rules. I'm always open to new things, but I lean toward lean & simple rules systems.

[zanshin]

I think Speed was an optional rule in 5e, and originally simply was used for how fast someone could move. It has evolved to reflect whole body agility, as opposed to hand eye coordination and fine manipulation (dexterity).

If you don't want it, it is easy to drop (or not adopt)

[mahrundl]

Jan 19, 2019 18:01:41 GMT -5 Piper said:

Jan 19, 2019 17:41:06 GMT -5 sonofliefeld said:

think the first time i came across the speed attribute (before 5.5 edition) was in the Arena of Khazan solo

I haven't had the pleasure of playing that one, yet. I'll check it out ... perhaps it will shed light on why KSA (et al.) saw fit to put it in the rules. I'm always open to new things, but I lean toward lean & simple rules systems.

It's a very fun solo, in my opinion, and has always seemed very popular. If you can lay your hands on a copy, I encourage you to give it a try.

As zanshin says, SPD was an optional attribute in 5th edition and was a measure of movement speed rather than agility or reaction time as in later editions. Since T & T tends more to the 'does it sound reasonable?' than the 'you can move 13.63 metres per SPD point per minute, adjusted by the following amounts...', it seems of relatively limited utility to me. I'm pretty sure that I only ever used it in Arena of Khazan.

Fun note: the situations where you need a SPD rating also provide, as 'an Arena special', one of the earliest uses of TARO that I'm aware of. Which led to me, against all expectations, rolling up 2 consecutive characters with SPD ratings of 94. Basically, I had 2 Dwarven versions of The Flash in the Arena...

[Piper]

Jan 20, 2019 4:20:30 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

It's a very fun solo, in my opinion, and has always seemed very popular. If you can lay your hands on a copy, I encourage you to give it a try.

Apparently AoK has been re-released, though this is likely not news to this crowd: Amazon

Jan 20, 2019 4:20:30 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

As zanshin says, SPD was an optional attribute in 5th edition and was a measure of movement speed rather than agility or reaction time as in later editions. Since T & T tends more to the 'does it sound reasonable?' than the 'you can move 13.63 metres per SPD point per minute, adjusted by the following amounts...', it seems of relatively limited utility to me. I'm pretty sure that I only ever used it in Arena of Khazan.

Fun note: the situations where you need a SPD rating also provide, as 'an Arena special', one of the earliest uses of TARO that I'm aware of. Which led to me, against all expectations, rolling up 2 consecutive characters with SPD ratings of 94. Basically, I had 2 Dwarven versions of The Flash in the Arena...

Thanks for the look at SPD ... and cool story about the Flash-Dwarves.

[mgtremaine]

I think Naked Doom was the first product with Speed, Ken used it to see if you get killed by the Archers. So to answer you question if a Solo asked me to roll it then my 5th edition characters had it but otherwise no. (But I play the hell out of Arena of Khazan its a great Sunday afternoon adventure, so most of my "stable" has spd.)

-Mike

PS - I posted up my house rules for AoK long ago here trollbridge.proboards.com/post/24725/thread

[sonofliefeld]

it's worth noting that in later editions SPD score also used in generating personal adds
which is something you could decided to also use or not if you decide to adopt the SPD attribute

[Piper]

Jan 20, 2019 9:26:49 GMT -5 mgtremaine said:

I think Naked Doom was the first product with Speed, Ken used it to see if you get killed by the Archers. [snip ...]

Interesting. In the MetaArcade version of ND you roll a three saving throws for the same situation: a DEX roll to run fast and dodge well to escape, but even if you're successful you realize speed alone won't cut it. You then make 1 or 2 LK saving throws to avoid the oncoming arrows.

[Piper]

Jan 20, 2019 14:08:06 GMT -5 sonofliefeld said:

it's worth noting that in later editions SPD score also used in generating personal adds
which is something you could decided to also use or not if you decide to adopt the SPD attribute

Good to know, thank you for that info.

[khaboom]

I've always found that players like it. Often, DEX seems 'iffy' for what is going down. Ken always saw it as speed of reaction, not sprinting speed. Sometimes, it seems reasonable to me to give the players a choice between reacting quickly or trying to be precise/accurate in a movement. I heartily agree with the notion of not using it if it doesn't work for you. Even though it does for me, I never ask another GM to use it and as a GM if players don't like it I'd probably drop it.
Of course, you can go on for ever dissecting attributes. For example, running. I sometimes average STR and SPD for sprinting and STR and CON for endurance running. I tend to suggest things like this and see if players think it makes sense.
In a solo, I do whatever I feel like doing! I always hear May Roy Cram's words - "cheat egregiously!".

[zanshin]

Jan 20, 2019 14:30:43 GMT -5 Piper said:

Jan 20, 2019 14:08:06 GMT -5 sonofliefeld said:

it's worth noting that in later editions SPD score also used in generating personal adds
which is something you could decided to also use or not if you decide to adopt the SPD attribute

Good to know, thank you for that info.

I think Mgtremaine may be mis-remembering but I don't have a Naked Doom to hand to check. I'll have to look when i get home. I thought it was Luck and Dex.

(Turns out Mgtremaine was as right as I am emphatically wrong - I will pay whatever forum based forfeit he deems appropriate for this egregious error, leaving my erroneous statement up for posterity)

[sonofliefeld]

Jan 21, 2019 5:29:08 GMT -5 zanshin said:

I think Mgtremaine may be mis-remembering but I don't have a Naked Doom to hand to check. I'll have to look when i get home. I thought it was Luck and Dex.

in both my copies of naked doom ( UK blade editon by chris harvey games and 2nd eition 5th printing 1980 dan carver cover) it tells you to make one spd saving roll and one luck saving roll and if you dont have a spd attribute roll one up now

i think its the naked doom game in the Metaarcade app that asks for dex and luck saving roll

[zanshin]

Jan 21, 2019 6:09:36 GMT -5 sonofliefeld said:

Jan 21, 2019 5:29:08 GMT -5 zanshin said:

I think Mgtremaine may be mis-remembering but I don't have a Naked Doom to hand to check. I'll have to look when i get home. I thought it was Luck and Dex.

in both my copies of naked doom ( UK blade editon by chris harvey games and 2nd eition 5th printing 1980 dan carver cover) it tells you to make one spd saving roll and one luck saving roll and if you dont have a spd attribute roll one up now

i think its the naked doom game in the Metaarcade app that asks for dex and luck saving roll

I may well be misremembering

I think my edition of Naked Doom predates 5e - it isn't the nice glossy Blade edition, it's the smaller booklet one with a desperate guy running with a loincloth and a yellow cover.
But if I am wrong (and at this point I think I probably am) then it does mean that Speed has been an attribute innovation that Ken has been keen on for a long time.

[mgtremaine]

I'd love to hear from someone who has the 1977 Naked Doom (pre - 5th edition) to see if SPEED was in there. However I'm certain that in the 2nd edition 1980 it requires 2 SPEED Saves at the start. Ken admits he trying to kill you because he thought Deathtrap Equalizer was to easy.

-Mike