The Amazing thing about T&T

[Karl]

The Amazing thing about T&T is the more modern rpg's I run, the more and more I love and miss playing T&T.

It's also so neat to see so many rpg's heavily influenced by T&T. I just played a new system called Fantasy Age that was just like T&T in a vast number of ways but with added polish and TONS off added bloat to the rules. The more of it I played the more I kept thinking..Why am I not doing this with T&T.

I mean it's been almost 45 years since I played my first game of T&T and it hasn't lost its luster!

[d4caltrops]

What about starting a T&T campaign?

I've run a couple games of T&T in the past 2 weeks and I think it is going to be my 2020 game of the year.

Thinking about how the sessions went, one of the things that is really appealing about T&T is that it's got mechanical support for what would otherwise seem like arbitrary decisions, but not so much crunch that it's in the way.

The saving roll mechanic really is pretty genius. And it's simple enough to be adaptable -- I can't remember if this is described in reading materials anywhere, but something I started doing for certain situations was to do "opposed" saving rolls, to see which party was luckier (or stronger or more agile) for a given level of difficulty.

Anyway, I am digressing.

[Karl]

I would like to.I'm just not sure I could pull it off.
I mainly play on roll20 and I have meet insane resistance from my roll20 players to anything not 5E D&D.

Also I'm already running 5E games. Sigh....mostly I feel those are all excuses.

I could run a T&T game and it would rock as long as I managed to find people willing to give T&T a shot and willing to step back from the rules bloat love.

[mahrundl]

I was in a long-term campaign, using a home-brewed rules set.

When that ended, we shifted to 3rd Edition TOG as that was what the new GM wanted to run.

When that ended, I got drafted as the new GM. So 5th Edition - the real one, not this Johnny-come-lately TOG variant - was the rules set used.

While I'd like to play some T & T too, GMing it is proving to be a whole lot of fun too.  (I suspect that the players will be quite annoyed with me when they find out some of what is going on!)

So perhaps you need to convince the other players that they should choose you to GM, using the system of your choice of course...

I know, it isn't that easy. Why is there 'insane resistance' to anything not 5E TOG?

[ProfGremlin]

Dec 31, 2019 6:25:01 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

I know, it isn't that easy. Why is there 'insane resistance' to anything not 5E TOG?

Howler Monkeys.

To elaborate: I'm currently playing in a bi-weekly campaign of Vampire: the Masquerade which started using the 20th anniversary rules and then switched to the 5th edition version when it was published. I was sitting at the table a few weeks back when a player elected to perform a social action and proceeded to roll double the number of dice I could muster using my highest attribute and skill. I found out a couple of weeks afterwards that they had deliberately min-maxed their character. I despise min-maxing. Play your character, not your dice!

This, in my unapologetic opinion, is the attraction of most modern games. They have fostered a behavior of combining this class with that school/path, with a particular background and select feats so the character (ergo player) can be the biggest, baddest, loudest howler monkey in the mob for that scene thereby gaining social acceptance and standing. 5th Ed ToG is simply the latest shiny with strong brand recognition. No different than MS Windows - brand recognition and familiarity. Doesn't matter if another game (or operating system) would do the same - and in some circumstances do it better - as the recognized brand or not. There's also the issue of the financial sink hole. Many modern games have a huge library of tomes to build that perfect character. When you've bought the half-dozen volumes (at $30-$50 each) to build that perfect character you're loathe to set that aside for another game that you don't own.

I'm not against modern games, I've actually been enjoying my VtM characters. We just have to recognize, as many on this board do, that it's a different style of play. For those who don't know anything else, change is resisted.

[Karl]

This is my experience as well. RPG characters are about getting max ranked stats combined with race specials and class specials with special feats thrown in to make UBER LEET character.

I mean they always say"it doesn't limit the role playing,you can min max AND role play...but in practice yes,yes it does.

After playing with two of my online players for almost three years, they still do not grasp role playing. They can't imagine a character not thinking like them, Last session we had a talk about a npc Paladin who was acting very "I AM THE LAW" and going about his mission as best he could from his viewpoint.

They didn't understand his viewpoint. I stopped the chat for a minute to make sure I was understanding..the Players did not understand the Paladins viewpoint. I explained it to them and they still had issues.

They can make some mean min/max high dps damage dealers for sure but role playing just doesn't seem to be in the cards for them.

Also yes they are the worst in my group of 6 about role playing but the rest are for the most part challenged as well.

[peterpanda]

For what it's worth, lichbeard, I have travelled a similar path. I started out with Steve Jackson's "Melee" before quickly moving on to 4th Edition T&T. Then, in 1978 came the first of the AD&D hardback books and that led me to playing T&T and AD&D concurrently. I segued into 5th Edition T&T when it came out and played both but AD&D became the behemoth around this time and with it, it's heavier emphasis on rules became the popular norm. I got hung-up on first, skills-based systems, but later, realism (both trends in the hobby that others followed as well). I'm absolutely not saying that there's anything wrong either of these developments but for what I find most appealing about gaming, both started taking me down a rat's hole of complexity and too many tomes, manuals, handbooks, and other overpriced accouterments. This all culminated in my exhaustive home-brewed FRPG system that worked and for which I got lots of play out of, but it also sucked up hours of time just to complete a combat, being as obsessed on realism as it was. When life took over and gaming was put away for several years, it gave me time to reflect on what it was I found so enjoyable in FRPGs and it slowly dawned on me that the genius of T&T is in its perfect balance of rules and playability. I've been edging back into gaming over the past 3-5 years as I'm reclaiming a little bit of free time and that all began with me rediscovering T&T and now DT&T. I have no regrets about this decision and relish the flexibility T&T offers. Should I circumstantially want more realism in a particular situation, I just add a rule or fallback on SRs. Anyway, I'm rambling. Time to go roll some dice...

Peter Panda

[mahrundl]

I expected that it was something like that, lichbeard. A shame.

Could you ask them to try just a one-off scenario for a session or two, and try to hook them into it for longer term that way? Or will they refuse to even do that?

My campaign grew out of a one-room cave with a few goblins in it that I created as a basic introduction to the combat system. Those players have no idea where they are now; the towns and even some of the people are familiar, but they are quite sure that there was only 1 moon when they started... Granted, they are more open to trying other things than your players seem to be, but it might be worth a try (assuming that you haven't tried something like this already).

Let them play the characters they want, within reason. They can't realistically start with 20th level spells in a 1st level game, but a Human Warrior with a ST of 25 won't break things. I have a werewolf (who is also a Wizard) and a very strong and tough wooden construct in my current game. All of the players were told that they could choose pretty much whatever they wanted for their character (GM veto applied, but I don't think that there was anything that I had to do more than just tweak slightly). Would that be enough to tempt them, do you think?

The thing is, they know what their characters can do, but there's no monster manual so they won't know exactly what the creatures they are up against can do. Orcs are fairly well-known in terms of abilities, but this tribe of orcs have 2 points of natural armour each, a shaman who has a few non-standard spells in his repertoire, and a talent for digging exceedingly well hidden pit traps. You can min-max too, or at least have foes who have the ability to counter the PCs advantages to some extent.

Does this help at all? It's hard to give specifics without knowing the sort of min-maxing that they are doing, but if you can lure them with the promise of being able to min-max their character creation as they want, you at least get them playing. Then challenge them with things where their min-maxing doesn't necessarily help. Let them use those abilities of course, but they may find that min-maxed abilities are sometimes more of a curse than a blessing. Do they want 18 in all attributes, for example? If you hit them with a Mirror of Opposition, where the duplicate has the attribute numbers reversed, they are up against all 81s!  (You have to be careful, obviously, if you want to avoid a TPK in this situation.)

[zanshin]

Might also be worth checking out Gaptooths campaign thread(s) - he took a group used to D&D and converted them to T&T - there were lessons in what to do and what not to do from that.

I think what games like D&D offer is inspiration in a can - you want to play the offspring of a Dragon who has made a pact with an otherworldly power - D&D offers you rules for a Dragonborn warlock.

T&T gives you more barebone rules but a pretty flexible structure for playing just about any character you want. In one of my games a player wanted to be a Panzerborn - one of the bears from Philip Pullmans Dark Materials. I let him - Triple Strength & Con, all other stats X1 , claws & bite natural weapons, but could not use other weapons and had to craft his own armour from the right materials. He was happy with that.

I am lucky to play with a long term group of friends who roll with my experiments. Maybe work with the people who express the most enjoyment of your GMing and see if you can get them to move out of their comfort zone.

Good luck.

[zanshin]

Could not find the Gaptooth thread I was talking about, so here's a link to devadasi's Monsters Monsters setting and game experience. A brilliant display of what someone can do with T&T and it's allied systems.

trollbridge.proboards.com/thread/2770/monsters-setting

[5atbu]

Who's running T&T on Roll20 here?

[mrballista]

Dec 31, 2019 6:25:01 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

Why is there 'insane resistance' to anything not 5E TOG?

I've encountered this recently. There are a number of reasons, IMO, but I think the main one is Critical Role. A lot of 5e players aren't really interested in roleplaying, they're just interested in 5e because CR is popular and they want in on the latest fad. If CR was all about Runequest they'd all want to play Runequest. If it was all about T&T.....etc. etc

Regarding Roll20 I have run a bit of T&T on it and might again this year. I'll post here if and when so interested parties can take part.

[5atbu]

Please let us know, new thread maybe?

[sscrompton]

Monsters! Monsters! and the Toughest Dungeon in the World return anew via Kickstarter



Hi All (Stever Crompton here) thought I'd post this here so you can see the latest news from Ken and I. We just launched the Kickstarter for M



Ken St. Andre has updated and created a new edition of Monsters! Monsters! and Toughest Dungeon in the World. What’s new in these books? Ken has updated and enhanced his classic solo adventure and the Monsters! Monsters! Rules. The new M! M! rules lists 38 monster kindreds you can play, gives you their dice modifiers and now each monster has a special power unique to its kindred. Each monster is described in a separate section. Its also better organized and easier to use. (For example – now the monsters are separated into humanoid and non-humanoid types) There are two character sheets you can use along with specialized charts that allow you to roll up various types of Monsters based on many common frpg environments.




This new edition of the Toughest Dungeon solo is at least 44 pages long and will keep any player busy for a lot of adventure in caverns and tunnels deep below Trollworld. The Lord of Shadows dwells in the depths – can you avoid his power or will you be corrupted by it? One other thing we should add is that you can play this solo with the Tunnels &Trolls rules or the Monsters! Monsters! rules, so you don’t have to learn an whole new rpg to play it.




Steve Crompton, who has worked as Flying Buffalo’s Art Director since the 1990’shave enhanced it with new illustrations and graphics more suitable for a monster-mash solo adventure. Most of the illustrations in the book are by Phil Longmierer, a long-time fantasy artist who specializes in drawing monsters that perfectly fit the tone and style of Ken’s creative writings. This new edition is at least 44 pages long and will keep any player busy for a lot of adventure in caverns and tunnels deep below Trollworld. The Lord of Shadows dwells in the depths – can you avoid his power or will you be corrupted by it? One other thing we should add is that you can play this solo with the Tunnels &Trolls rules or the Monsters! Monsters! rules, so you don’t have to learn an whole new rpg to play it.




Few RPGs still have the opportunity for its original designer to work on a new versions of their classic works over 40 years later. Don’t miss out on being a part of a piece of gaming history – the return of Monsters! Monsters! and a chance to explore “The Toughest Dungeon in the World!” (No matter what edition you get!)

Here's the link: 

/comments

[sscrompton]

MAY T&T MADNESS BEGINS! Surprise release on Drive-Thru! Grimtooth's Tomb of the Warhammer has been converted into a T&T GM adventure! Download your copy today. This makes a great sequel or prequel to the Vaults of K'Horror adventure, which takes place in the same region.

www.drivethrurpg.com/product/312692/Grimtooths-Tomb-of-the-Warhammer-TT-GM-Adv