Hands as weapons

[gringnr]

Since T&T (at least, 5e, which is what I'm playing) allows for dual-wielding,STR and DEX allowing, what's to stop someone from, say, using their hand as a second weapon? Perhaps "unarmed" implies that both hands would need to be used in order to be effective? This is definitely the case with Bagh Nakh. Or maybe handit is assumed that the dominant hand would be used in both types of attack?

On the face of it, it might sound absurd, but since a combat round is two minutes, well, it's not completely unrealistic that someone might hack and slash, taking the opportunistic jab or elbow of possible. 

But what about someone who has been through the Deathtrap Equalizer, and is now

SPOILER: Click to show

the owner of a shiny, new 4d crystal hand? Could that be used as a second weapon?

[bigjackbrass]

I think it's one of those areas where you have to decide what seems logical to you and house rule it.

There's nothing to stop you treating a normal hand as a second weapon, but personally I probably wouldn't. If you look at the combat round then you can certainly argue that there would be opportunities to, say, parry your opponent's sword and then punch him in the face, but you could also consider the greater chance of suffering an injury if you're trying to punch an armed foe while also concentrating on your other weapon. If your hand has been transformed into a weapon however, either magically or by wearing knuckle-dusters or the like, then I would allow it to work like any other second weapon.

Unlikely to break the game regardless. Being unarmed in a T&T is described in the book as being in the worst situation, with a d6 adding a slight variety to your raw melee adds, so it doesn't feel right to me for that to turn around and be an advantage the moment you have a weapon in one hand. Personally, I wouldn't allow the off-hand to add a die to a weapon attack.

[gringnr]

Apr 2, 2020 4:39:51 GMT -5 bigjackbrass said:

I think it's one of those areas where you have to decide what seems logical to you and house rule it.

There's nothing to stop you treating a normal hand as a second weapon, but personally I probably wouldn't. If you look at the combat round then you can certainly argue that there would be opportunities to, say, parry your opponent's sword and then punch him in the face, but you could also consider the greater chance of suffering an injury if you're trying to punch an armed foe while also concentrating on your other weapon. If your hand has been transformed into a weapon however, either magically or by wearing knuckle-dusters or the like, then I would allow it to work like any other second weapon.

Unlikely to break the game regardless. Being unarmed in a T&T is described in the book as being in the worst situation, with a d6 adding a slight variety to your raw melee adds, so it doesn't feel right to me for that to turn around and be an advantage the moment you have a weapon in one hand. Personally, I wouldn't allow the off-hand to add a die to a weapon attack.

That's pretty much my take on all of it. Thanks!

[zanshin]

I would say that a free hand gives you some narrative room when it comes to stunting. Hands can manipulate, grab, flick stuff, push and so on. So if you do want to play a 3 Musketeers type duellist, thats probably the way to go.

[jeffepp]

The crystal hand is a weapon, and stated as so. But, a bare empty one, not so much. A lot of fist fights can go on for a while.

But, what if you want to be a martial artist of some sort? A fighter, but with the weapon level bonus (Deluxe) flipped to unarmed instead.

[zanshin]

I would give a warrior his level bonus for using an off hand if playing deluxe T&T. You get the bonus for each of two weapons if 2 weapon fighting, so it's not much of a stretch.

Martial artists would need some kind of special treatment, but I would prefer to have this affect their facility at stunts.

[ProfGremlin]

Apr 5, 2020 6:37:23 GMT -5 zanshin said:

I would give a warrior his level bonus for using an off hand if playing deluxe T&T. You get the bonus for each of two weapons if 2 weapon fighting, so it's not much of a stretch.

It certainly seems a reasonable approach - if brass knuckles can be considered a weapon why not a mailed gauntlet? Not the same game but I recall in 7th Seas the Freiberg Guards were well known for using Panzerhands (mailed fists) to keep the peace. For that matter, why not a small buckler built into a mailed gauntlet?

As I'm typing the above it occurs to me to wonder what is behind the motivation for the off-hand to have no weapon? It's almost an unwritten rule in T&T for the character to wield two weapons if at all possible. It dramatically increases survivability. Only time one doesn't is when using a two-handed weapon. Is the situation one where the delver didn't have the second weapon for some reason?

Please understand, there's nothing accusatory here, simply a desire to understand the reason/need to better fit the solutions to the problem.  I could see where the character may be skinned as a duelist.  This could be a variation on the Specialist of Dexterity or Speed with the off-hand factored in for parrying, as an example (something often seen in Musketeers movies, when done with a heavy glove - those rapiers are sharp!).

[lurker37]

Late to the party, but: If you check the NPCs at the back of City of Terrors, Mingor Diamondfist fights with his 4d hand and a 5d pilum in the other hand. Using it in normal melee seems to be the intended use.

[zanshin]

Oct 28, 2020 19:31:53 GMT -5 lurker37 said:

Late to the party, but: If you check the NPCs at the back of City of Terrors, Mingor Diamondfist fights with his 4d hand and a 5d pilum in the other hand. Using it in normal melee seems to be the intended use.

Yes, I don't think that is contested, where you have a magical hand weapon free you can use it as an extra weapon.

The open question is how you treat someone with a (normal) empty hand. Solutions have been presented upthread. As always with T&T , whatever works at your table, works.

Maybe one small elaboration would be to say that to strike with an open hand takes at least 1 Str & 1 Dex, so you have to have that much spare with your attributes vs weapon use.

A further point is that you get to use 1d when fighting unarmed, presuming all your body parts are available, so perhaps just having a spare hand should only be allowed a bonus when proficient with weapons, so maybe... (any YT&TMV)

Warrior/Paragon - get 1 dice plus any level based bonus dice for having a free offhand

Rogues - can try appropriate stunts with a weapon when they have an off hand free

Wizards - do you let them dual wield? If so then as rogues. If not, then I would say they either stunt, or use their weapon, not both.

[lurker37]

Well according to some HEMA videos I've been watching, a free hand was sometimes used in close combat to do things like grab an opponent's shield or to try to grab their arm and force a contest of strength. So a free hand was less about punching and more about being able to attempt what in T&T would be a stunt. Perhaps someone with a weapon in only one hand could attempt an appropriate stunt without losing their damage contribution to the fight? Other possible options a free hand gives you could include spellcasting, item use, potions, powders to throw in the foe's face..