zanshin
14th Level Troll
Posts: 2,871
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Post by zanshin on Aug 26, 2020 4:40:10 GMT -5
I can assume then that Stunts (SRs) would become even more important in combat under the Deadlier Rules? As SRs are intrinsic to the new system, I think I would have stunts modify outcomes. Don't want to give too much away as I am sure Ken would like to sell some copies  |
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zanshin
14th Level Troll
Posts: 2,871
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Post by zanshin on Sept 3, 2020 3:22:38 GMT -5
If you can't commit to buying this, the new rules are outlined in the preview document on drive thru. That way you can grok what Ken is introducing.
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Post by mahrundl on Sept 3, 2020 6:16:35 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to play around with it yet, but it seems to me that the constant recalculations of Essence will be off-putting to many.
Also, I have some ambivalence about the way in which magic will interact with the system. For example, Vorpal Blade will increase your damage if you hit, but not the chance of you scoring a hit in the first place, as I read it. Perhaps that's good, perhaps not.
It's certainly a different system, and appears to be considerably deadlier (as advertised). I just don't know if those things constitute an improvement overall. It will be interesting to see what develops as people play with it.
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zanshin
14th Level Troll
Posts: 2,871
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Post by zanshin on Sept 3, 2020 9:02:18 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to play around with it yet, but it seems to me that the constant recalculations of Essence will be off-putting to many. Also, I have some ambivalence about the way in which magic will interact with the system. For example, Vorpal Blade will increase your damage if you hit, but not the chance of you scoring a hit in the first place, as I read it. Perhaps that's good, perhaps not. It's certainly a different system, and appears to be considerably deadlier (as advertised). I just don't know if those things constitute an improvement overall. It will be interesting to see what develops as people play with it. I hadn't considered Monsters losing essence as they get damaged, but that makes sense of course. TTYF goes back to being king of spells (if it ever lost that) as it always damages. |
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Post by mahrundl on Sept 3, 2020 17:31:19 GMT -5
Monsters are the easy ones. Recalculating an average of 8 numbers whenever a character gets damaged? Or casts a spell? That could get old very quickly. (There are shortcuts that you can do if you're more mathematically versed, but that's not going to be the case for quite a lot of people...)
It might be better to use the Human Rating concept from Monsters! Monsters!. At the start of combat, calculate the Human Rating using whatever method seems best (total all attributes and divide by 2?), then use that for the combat rather than attributes. Losses to ST, WIZ, and CON (and any other attribute, in unusual circumstances) all come out of Human Rating. You still have to recalculate, but the calculation is a lot simpler.
That's just a quick fix idea without any play-testing, so there are likely problems with it, but I think it's better than the official method in terms of simplicity at least.
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Post by gaptooth on Sept 3, 2020 18:10:02 GMT -5
To me, the obvious answer is, player characters would use their actual attributes, individually, for Saving Rolls, per the standard rules. This is a deviation from the T&T idea that your combat ability is a combination of DEX, LCK, and STR, but I think anyone could intuitively pair attack/defense maneuvers using certain weapons with an appropriate attribute—usually DEX or STR.
Another solution, closer to T&T's roots, is to set "Essence" equal to 12 plus your delver's Combat Adds. Then, all the same factors as usual.
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Post by gaptooth on Sept 3, 2020 19:52:27 GMT -5
Another solution, closer to T&T's roots, is to set "Essence" equal to 12 plus your delver's Combat Adds. Looks like I left my thought dangling there because the phone rang. What I mean is, all the same factors as usual would affect your combat ability. And you only have to refactor "Essence" as often as you usually do. In 5th edition, that could be a lot for spellcasters—but the futuristic Wizardry stat would allow you to cast spells all day long without refactoring Combat Adds. |
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Post by ProfGremlin on Sept 4, 2020 9:28:21 GMT -5
If you can't commit to buying this, the new rules are outlined in the preview document on drive thru. That way you can grok what Ken is introducing. Thanks for pointing this out, zanshin . I've read through the mini-rules preview and here are my initial thoughts: 1) This seems to be using a new system to break combat into two phases: To Hit and To Damage. Essence is used to calculate your ability to land an attack on your opponent. If you succeed, you then roll your damage. If you fail, you contribute nothing to the combat sequence. 2) What are we trying to fix with this new system? I realize Ken mentions the frequently requested option of using saving rolls in combat. In the next sentence he points out that we've been doing this for years to include stunts to enhance an otherwise vanilla-trading-blows-sequence of combat (Please refer to the inestimable zanshin 's Dare to DARO in Trollszine #1). To my mind, this system would appeal to individuals who are familiar with other game systems where the combat sequence is more granular. That excitement of "I hit it!" and then getting to roll how much damage you do. I foresee the next logical step as finding a way to increase a character's ability to succeed on their Essence SR. Something along the lines of a Talent which is specifically oriented towards combat. There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach to gaming. I've played in plenty of games where this is the norm. For T&T, though, Deluxe or otherwise, I have the nagging feeling that this is moving us away from story-telling role play towards dice-stacking roll play. Please keep in mind, these are my initial thoughts and I'm happy to see a more comprehensive view of this approach. Always remember, it's your game at the table. As long as you are having fun, no one gets to tell you how to play it. |
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zanshin
14th Level Troll
Posts: 2,871
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Post by zanshin on Sept 4, 2020 10:38:52 GMT -5
My take is that Ken is great at coming up with ideas and throwing them at the wall to see what sticks.
I think the problem with this mode is that it accentuates the tension between Monster Rating & Delvers CON as hits.
An MR 20 Orc in classic T&T is a good even foe for a warrior delver. A human warrior with say 3 adds, a broadsword and a buckler will have a damage output of 3d6 + 7, 6 AP, and lets say a CON of 13. In one on one, the orc cannot do more than 12 damage to the warrior (and thats at the extreme end of the spectrum). A typical fight will see the delver take a few damage, and wear the orc down.
In the new system, the Orc can easily one hit kill the delver, and will average 15 (after armour!) damage when it hits.
Its too much rocket tag for T&Ts numbers. it also creates a need for action order, the lack of which is one of T&Ts unique properties.
It certainly is deadly. I think the traditional T&T potential for semi stalemate is a feature not a bug, encouraging stunts.
I have long played around with missile damage & spells to try to give Delvers a chance of surviving hits from them.
I think some more work with the math is needed. If adds determined essence , and you rolled your damage dice (from weapon or MR) without adding adds, that might fit the system better, but that's an off the top of my head solution.
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Post by Burdbelkus Portabello on Oct 17, 2020 17:39:26 GMT -5
I will now follow the links and go read up but my first thought as well was...what are they going to do to make it MORE deadly?  redo character sheets in the form of a gravestone and just have you roll for what killed you? Grats you made a Character! Looks like he died in childbirth..man he would have been cool! |
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jons
Lurker under the Bridge
Posts: 9
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Post by jons on Mar 19, 2021 12:23:43 GMT -5
Personally, I think the combat system is one of the biggest differences compared with other rpgs and I wouldn't want the basic concepts changed too much
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Post by kleefaj on Apr 11, 2021 19:38:13 GMT -5
I hope it still has cloud of fists as core to the system; that and SR's are the fundamentals of T&T to me. "cloud of fists"! Suddenly T&T combat makes sense to me!! |
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zanshin
14th Level Troll
Posts: 2,871
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Post by zanshin on Apr 12, 2021 7:56:10 GMT -5
I hope it still has cloud of fists as core to the system; that and SR's are the fundamentals of T&T to me. "cloud of fists"! Suddenly T&T combat makes sense to me!! Glad that helped. I am not sure where I got the term from (the image is of course from the cartoons of our youth). Maybe Gaptooth used it first here. Also, Ken's new system is in Trollszine 10. Which is available at a super reasonable price |
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redo character sheets in the form of a gravestone and just have you roll for what killed you? Grats you made a Character! Looks like he died in childbirth..man he would have been cool!
