Post by darkwood71 on Jan 27, 2021 12:37:44 GMT -5
I have a question about STR requirements for armor and weapons in dT&T. In 5th edition, the STR requirements for armor and weapons were separate from each other, so as long as the added STR requirements for all armor worn didn't exceed your STR and the total STR requirements for weapons wielded didn't exceed your STR, then you were good to go. However, there's a paragraph in the dT&T rulebook that has me wondering if this was changed. In the berserk combat example on page 83, there's this...
"Mijak is a human barbarian (a warrior) who fights with two small axes, each worth 3d6 in combat. He has a STR of 18 and an IQ of 10. He has 9 personal adds and is still level 1. He wears only a steel cap for armor (1 hit). Total strength required is 10 for the two axes, plus 1 for the cap"
This makes it seem like you're supposed to add all of the STR requirements for armor worn and weapons wielded together in dT&T. So, as an example, if a warrior was wearing plate armor and a knight's shield (20 STR required) while wielding a long sword (16 STR required), then the total would be 36 STR needed to equip all of it instead of 20 as in 5th edition.
Is this correct? And, if so, where am I missing this in the rulebook? I don't really have an opinion on what's better. I'm just trying to find where this is explained in the rules because I've looked everywhere, and I can't find anything (and it's driving me crazy. Lol).
That's a really good catch and one I hadn't picked up on as I had just applied the rule I was used to which was that you made a separate check for weapons and armour. I like this new interpretation (or rule) and will take it for a spin. It does make strength even more important
I guess it's quite reasonable in trying to make a character's "encumberance" more realistic perhaps but this will make life for low-level Fairies, Hobbs etc.. even tougher if you have to add up STR requirements for weapons and armour. Those embryonic heroes really need some armour when they start out
Post by ProfGremlin on Jan 27, 2021 21:33:16 GMT -5
Greetings darkwood71 and welcome to the Trollbridge!
I've combed through various sections of the dT&T rulebook, running searches on various keywords as well as scanning visually. I have not been able to find any specific statement indicating that the requirements for weapons and armor are now to be calculated together. Nor can I find it in 7th Ed.
I thought perhaps it was an optional rule to make combat more deadly but it's not listed in the Elaborations section, either. FBI used to have an errata page but with the recent site rebuild I had to resort to the Internet Archive Wayback Machine. The errata page I found there did not list anything for the dT&T rulebook. Nor is there errata listed on DriveThruRPG or deluxetunnelsandtrolls.com that I can locate.
What I find interesting is the last section of the last sentence in the quoted paragraph:
Total strength required is 10 for the two axes, plus 1 for the cap—plenty left over for everyday adventures and whatever he’s packing on his back.
This leads me to believe that the author was considering encumbrance and not wielding requirements. The numbers specified are the strength required numbers rather than the encumbrance numbers, which should be 30+30+15, respectively. I can't help but think that someone was looking at the wrong column when writing that example.
The end of the example states Mijak lacks the strength to wield his weapons. To me, this is more a commentary on the risks of going berserk rather than a specific listing of strength required for weapons plus armour. Spend too long in the berserk state and you'll come out of it too tired to wield your weapon. Granted, the statement is in alignment with the weapons strength required chart - and earlier editions of T&T - but with only 2 STR left, he'd be lucky to wield chopsticks much less anything else. There is no mention of being strong enough to keep his steel cap on.
In the end, I would consider strength requirements for weapons and armour separately. Combining them would certainly lead to more deadly combat as delvers would be more lightly armoured and employ lighter weapons. Nothing is wrong with this approach, it just doesn't match my perspective of PCs being the exception to the rule. Adventurers are heroic by nature. Why else would they risk it all in the dark, dank, depths of dangerous dungeons? Of course they're strong enough to wear their armour and wield their blades!
I'll have the deep-fried battered pixie with balrog dipping sauce and a Hobgoblin ale.
Post by darkwood71 on Jan 28, 2021 12:43:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies everyone. And, thank you ProfGremlin for verifying that I'm not completely off my rocker and that the rule isn't there. My OCD wouldn't let me stop looking for it even though I was 98% certain it wasn't there as well. Lol.
It's not the first time that an example doesn't match perfectly with the RAW. Also, encumbrance has always been a separate operation to the strength needed to wield a weapon or wear armour effectively.
This gives us 3 options, each taxing strength more greatly.
1) Strength requirements are calculated separately for weapons and armour, weight units carriable is separate again 2) Strength requirements are combined for weapons and armour , weight units carriable is separate again 3) Strength requirements are combined for weapons, armour and the weight of other items.
Perhaps we need a new encumbrance system altogether! Sounds like an article for Trollszine!!
Well, my deep dive on the rules was specifically to see how I might run a WWII era game that integrates T&T, M!M! and MSPE (basically, I want monsters, magic, skills/talents and guns in WWII. Kinda like a modern version of the movie Wizards). I wasn't quite sure if I wanted to keep the stat cap from MSPE which is why I was looking so closely at references to STR requirements (really, I'm still not quite sure. Lol). As much as I like the idea of boosting the importance of strength, I think I'll stick with the 5th edition interpretation in case I do have a cap of some sort. Though it makes sense to me that shields might be included in the weapon requirements since it's held and not really worn. However, I'll leave the theory crafting on encumbrance to others. Lol.
Post by Burdbelkus Portabello on Feb 18, 2021 10:31:52 GMT -5
Yeah I think it's simply a mistake.
THAT SAID......I love it!
I'm going to take this for a spin and see how it works out.
My reasoning is this: I dislike how fast Delvers quickly escalate through the armor and weapons until (to me) much to quickly ending up with the best armors and weapons and then quickly blasting off into greater and greater magical gear.
If I can slow this down some by adding some extra requirements and grittiness to things then I'm all for it.
I don't even mind the added difficulty For Hobs and the like with lower scores, it's fun to struggle because of kindred differences at least to a point.
I will see how this works out....maybe it might need some tweaking here and there.