Monster Damage

[etaion]

My apologies if this has been covered in-depth elsewhere.

It seems that how Monsters receive damage from combat is one area that has a great deal of variation between editions:  Reduce MR reduces atk dice and add, reduce adds only, reduce atk dice only etc.

DT&T (if I'm reading it right) says to reduce the adds, but not the attack/weapon dice.  This seems backward to me.

If a monster is using NATURAL weapons (teeth, claws, etc.) then a PC possibly could inflict damage upon those natural weapons which would reduce the Monster's attack dice. Fighting the individual arms of an octopus for example.

This should not affect the Monster's personal/combat adds.  If a PC should drop/damage their weapon, it doesn't reduce the adds, they only lose the attack dice tied to that weapon.

A Monster is defeated by reducing its MR (which its CON is equivalent to) to zero.  CON is not a factor in determining combat adds.

[darrght]

Hi etaion

A man after my own heart

In 5th edition as MR dropped both dice and adds reduced and this meant monsters combat abilities really 'fell off a cliff' quite quickly.

In Deluxe, I think the idea to let monsters keep their starting dice was to try to stop this to some extent. I agree that it would perhaps make more sense for MR-rated opponents to keep their adds and let the dice drop. It would, of course, make them more like PCs and even tougher to defeat.

Bottom line as always with T&T is if you think this is a better way to do it then 'house rule' it and do it your way

[Aramis of Erak]

My thinking: Dice represent the inherent weapons of the critter. Adds represent the cumulative effects of St Dx Sp Lk.

Which also gives a baseline for Saves on MR critters: treat St, Dx, Sp, and Lk as 12+(MR/4) each.

Note that if a spell or special ability reduces a PC's atts, their adds drop immmediately, but their weapon dice don't... and if they drop low enough, the weapon still gets its dice, but the PC loses more St as they use a weapon &/or armor to heavy for them...

So MR critters probably should keep the dice. If you don't drop either, fights last much longer, as it fuels the D&D slugfest.

[graymouser65]

I am a 5th edition player, but I do prefer the method of not dropping the dice when a monster’s MR is reduced, but dropping its adds. If neither goes down the monsters are too tough. If both go down the monsters are paper tigers.

I think the reason that dice do not reduce when MR does is because by the time this entered into the T&T rule structure, we had spite damage. One of the things that strikes fear in every player is Spite damage. Spite damage comes from rolling a “6” so if the dice are reduced when a monster loses MR points it reduces the Spite damage threat by the monster. At least I think this is the game mechanic reason for not reducing damage dice but reducing the monster’s adds when it starts to take damage.

[speed1000]

I love spite damage. 95% of the time that is how the PCs take damage.

[houndle]

Anyone else still doing combat the old school way, i.e. Monsters add 1/4 MR from round 2? I've been using that of late. My philosophy (as much as I have one) is that the characters' opponent is the whole adventure rather than one foe, so after giving the creature one chance to get its licks in I like to dispose of it pretty quickly once the adventurers begin scoring. The level end boss is a different proposition of course. But I like to handle that through special abilities to keep things fresh.

[mahrundl]

Nah, I like my players to take damage!    Also, the MR 'death spiral' is bad enough using 1/2 MR.

It probably also makes a difference that there is no specific BBEG that they are gunning for (usually).  And they seem to enjoy fights where they are actually in danger; we've had quite a few incidental encounters that came close to a TPK.  On one occasion, it was only due to a type of chaos magic effect that ended up halving both sides attacks for several rounds (so the party's armour meant that they were merely badly wounded in the process of getting their defenses together, rather than killed outright on round 2) that allowed them to eventually triumph.

[houndle]

I get that mahrundl. One of the things I love about T&T, and a reason I've stuck with it in preference to other games, is it's flexibility. Something which this forum and Trollszine bring out really well to my mind.

Totally agree that spite is a great invention. Especially when it triggers some unexpected and nasty special effect.

[Rat Salad]

I've been pondering this very subject during my latest venture. I was thinking about trying the drop of adds, but keeping it's dice concept too, so I'm glad to hear about others thinking the same way. Think that's going to happen at the table next time we throw down so I can see. So, to clarify: The monster would lose it's adds and it's rating would drop, BUT the original rated dice would stay intact all the way to it's demise?

[zanshin]

Feb 27, 2022 20:55:51 GMT -5 Rat Salad said:

I've been pondering this very subject during my latest venture. I was thinking about trying the drop of adds, but keeping it's dice concept too, so I'm glad to hear about others thinking the same way. Think that's going to happen at the table next time we throw down so I can see. So, to clarify: The monster would lose it's adds and it's rating would drop, BUT the original rated dice would stay intact all the way to it's demise?

That was the change brought in with 7e I think - dice and adds are calculated in the same way as 5e (d6 =1 + MR/10 round down, adds = MR/2 round up) but only adds reduce.

7e also introduced monster special damage with spite, so retaining the dice makes that more likely to be a factor.

Also incentivizes killing weak monsters quickly to reduce spite taken.

[houndle]

I'm absolutely convinced that monsters roll more 6's since spite damage was introduced. 🤔

[Rat Salad]

I like the spite concept, but only used it a few times since the way I played decades ago didn't have it. The few times I used it, it seemed to work really well, though I was (am) a little shaky to remember to employ it. Question: Does spite hit CON regardless of armor? Can't remember...spite only gets thru on the winner, right, so the loser has a chance to score? Sorry..such a basic question for T&T it's goofy to ask, but it just didn't exist during my original T&T heyday....well, it did probably, but I didn't know about it.

[mahrundl]

My 2 cp summary of Spite:

By default, Spite comes directly off of CON.

Spite hits everyone - winners, losers, and random passers-by. (Maybe not that last group. ) The losers take Spite off of CON, and if they lost the round by more than the amount of Spite, they have to take that extra amount as well. The non-Spite damage can be reduced by armour though.

Spite can also be used to activate special abilities, e.g. 2 Spite from a viper means that the recipient takes D6 poison damage. Spite used to activate this sort of ability will generally not also do direct CON damage, since it has been 'spent' activating the ability.

[Rat Salad]

....so, any sixes on BOTH then, okay...i've read that passage 20 times and still second guessed it. So, when 6's come up then both sides divide the spite damage, or is it full for both??

[Rat Salad]

...i need to look for a video on it or something, to make sure i really get it...i'm thick in the head when it comes to change, ha. I've read that passage over and over and over again, and still, when I employed it, I don't think I did it right...not exactly anyhow.