Am I doing something wrong?

[shinmajin]

New to T&T, I recently picked up the deluxe edition and a handful of solo adventures and Trollzines. After studying the rulebook for a bit, I rolled up my first character. A fan of monstrous characters, I chose a harpy (Trollzine 9,) and with my highest stats being IQ, CON, and DEX, I felt a Wizard would be the most fun. Thinking up a fun backstory, I eagerly checked which adventures allowed Wizards, and settled on Dewdrop Inn.

Adventure 1: Three decisions in, I'm asked to roll for a random encounter. Rolling on the book's table, I get five MR 200 giant lizards, which I calculated to add up to...105d6+500!? That's utterly unsurvivable for a level 1 wizard! I fail the level 2 speed save to flee, and am extremely dead. Feeling cheated out of a good character, I declare a mulligan, moving on to a different adventure, Fractured Fairy Tales.

Adventure 2: After a single decision and successful save, I'm confronted by a single MR 30 monster. 4d6+15 is still far too much for my 2d6+3 dagger, so I figure my only way out is to delete it with a level 2 TTYF, which eats most of my WIZ. A boost to CON brings me to level 2, and one more decision and successful save brings me against a MR 43 monster I only have a 17 TTYF left in me, so I die.

Accepting this character's death, I roll up a new one, a goblin. My stats range from middling to terrible excepting my 17 luck. Unable to wield any weapon except for a blackjack, and unable to cast level 2 spells, I decide to play a Rogue. Next adventure is Adventures in Weirdworld.

Adventure 3: This one almost went alright. Made several decisions, cast Knock a few times, actually won a fight against an MR 9 snake. Then I just sorta failed a level 1 IQ save and died. Since it seemed implied the adventure was just a dream, I decided the character was still alive, and decided I'd try just one more with Never Trust a Wizard.

Adventure 4: Made one save, failed two, made one decision, and I find myself fighting a beast with 40 CON and 5d6 attack. I have 4 CON and 2d6+5 attack. Guess what happens next.

Is this kind of streak of unrelenting failure normal? It feels like I'm spending more time making characters than playing them. Is Warrior the only viable class? Do I need to somehow roll stats better? I feel like I'm missing something, and was hoping someone here could help.

[darrght]

Mar 30, 2022 12:45:11 GMT -5 shinmajin said:

New to T&T, I recently picked up the deluxe edition and a handful of solo adventures and Trollzines. After studying the rulebook for a bit, I rolled up my first character. A fan of monstrous characters, I chose a harpy (Trollzine 9,) and with my highest stats being IQ, CON, and DEX, I felt a Wizard would be the most fun. Thinking up a fun backstory, I eagerly checked which adventures allowed Wizards, and settled on Dewdrop Inn.

Adventure 1: Three decisions in, I'm asked to roll for a random encounter. Rolling on the book's table, I get five MR 200 giant lizards, which I calculated to add up to...105d6+500!? That's utterly unsurvivable for a level 1 wizard! I fail the level 2 speed save to flee, and am extremely dead. Feeling cheated out of a good character, I declare a mulligan, moving on to a different adventure, Fractured Fairy Tales.

Adventure 2: After a single decision and successful save, I'm confronted by a single MR 30 monster. 4d6+15 is still far too much for my 2d6+3 dagger, so I figure my only way out is to delete it with a level 2 TTYF, which eats most of my WIZ. A boost to CON brings me to level 2, and one more decision and successful save brings me against a MR 43 monster I only have a 17 TTYF left in me, so I die.

Accepting this character's death, I roll up a new one, a goblin. My stats range from middling to terrible excepting my 17 luck. Unable to wield any weapon except for a blackjack, and unable to cast level 2 spells, I decide to play a Rogue. Next adventure is Adventures in Weirdworld.

Adventure 3: This one almost went alright. Made several decisions, cast Knock a few times, actually won a fight against an MR 9 snake. Then I just sorta failed a level 1 IQ save and died. Since it seemed implied the adventure was just a dream, I decided the character was still alive, and decided I'd try just one more with Never Trust a Wizard.

Adventure 4: Made one save, failed two, made one decision, and I find myself fighting a beast with 40 CON and 5d6 attack. I have 4 CON and 2d6+5 attack. Guess what happens next.

Is this kind of streak of unrelenting failure normal? It feels like I'm spending more time making characters than playing them. Is Warrior the only viable class? Do I need to somehow roll stats better? I feel like I'm missing something, and was hoping someone here could help.

Hi shinmajin

Solo play, particularly for Wizards, is deadly in the extreme. Getting involved in melee when they are limited to 2D6 weapons makes things doubly bad though even warriors with their superior armour struggle at low levels. The fail a saving roll and you're dead scenario takes a bit of getting used to
There are plenty of comments on various threads here that will help you out; hopefully someone smarter than me will point you in the right direction but there is lots of talk about 'stunting' where you make a SR to dodge/run/fake etc.. during combat to even the odds a bit. Also, I have always gone for the roll 4D6 and take the best 3 when creating a new character.

On top of this, it is often sensible to choose kindreds that have high CON modifiers when starting out such as Dwarves.
Finally, and don't tell anyone this, but I long ago gave up rolling for gold when the time comes to equip my latest avatar, I let all newbies start with 150 GPs so that they can afford at least a bit of armour.

I must apologise for your destruction in 'Never Trust a Wizard'. As an author of T&T solos I'm not committed to killing characters, however, it is gratifying to hear that a few bite the dust

[cupboardgnome]

Mar 30, 2022 14:40:33 GMT -5 darrght said:

I must apologise for your destruction in 'Never Trust a Wizard'. As an author of T&T solos I'm not committed to killing characters, however, it is gratifying to hear that a few bite the dust

A few?!!!!  I've got folders FULL of corpses 

[viva]

I am not an expert at Deluxe but I think my answers will be correct...

It looks like you are missing your personal adds. In addition to your weapon you should have personal adds (section 3.2 of DT&T rules: +1 for each point over 12 in STR, DEX, LUCK and SPEED). Or if your stats are really as bad as you allude then you just had +0 personal adds and will have a hard time surviving. Note this is why Dwarves are so "strong" (STR X 2 is huge personal adds compared to every other kindred). These adds are generally about half your offense so they will help considerably in your fights.

That said, it seems like in Dewdrop Inn you got to level 2 to multiply the MR of those lizards by 2. And you rolled a 6 (which in this case was "bad" since it got you the toughest monsters possible) AND you rolled a decent quantity of those lizards on top of it. Basically I am not sure any freshly minted characters are going to be able to withstand such an encounter (heck a level 2, 3 or 4 would likely die there, too). I don't think a new character was meant for level 2 at all but I don't know that solo well.

So, aside from making sure you account for your adds which will generally help you, that particular instance was just not going to be survived. This is very common in the solos, especially the Flying Buffalo ones and even moreso in a Ken St Andre solo. I've never experimented but I feel like a 10% survival rate would actually be good in a KSA solo.

Many players will develop their own rules to equalize the toughness of the solos. I personally let my kids roll-up 3 to 5 characters and let them pick their best one. Others allow mulligans. Others just add a "the Second" to the characters name and go right back through and try again. And if you really are looking for a survivor you go for the burly rolled dwarf warrior. They will die, too, but higher chance of survival for sure.

Net: Solos are generally tough and getting 1 out of 10 through is a success for that character. Hopefully you are entertained even in the 9 deaths. Folks will react differently to the death ratios but generally its better for replay-ability and gets you more attached to the actual survivors.

[darrght]

You're not wrong about Ken's solos viva. I think when my first character escaped from Naked Doom I had a party

[shinmajin]

Mar 30, 2022 14:58:58 GMT -5 viva said:

I am not an expert at Deluxe but I think my answers will be correct...

It looks like you are missing your personal adds. In addition to your weapon you should have personal adds (section 3.2 of DT&T rules: +1 for each point over 12 in STR, DEX, LUCK and SPEED). Or if your stats are really as bad as you allude then you just had +0 personal adds and will have a hard time surviving. Note this is why Dwarves are so "strong" (STR X 2 is huge personal adds compared to every other kindred). These adds are generally about half your offense so they will help considerably in your fights.

That said, it seems like in Dewdrop Inn you got to level 2 to multiply the MR of those lizards by 2. And you rolled a 6 (which in this case was "bad" since it got you the toughest monsters possible) AND you rolled a decent quantity of those lizards on top of it. Basically I am not sure any freshly minted characters are going to be able to withstand such an encounter (heck a level 2, 3 or 4 would likely die there, too). I don't think a new character was meant for level 2 at all but I don't know that solo well.

So, aside from making sure you account for your adds which will generally help you, that particular instance was just not going to be survived. This is very common in the solos, especially the Flying Buffalo ones and even moreso in a Ken St Andre solo. I've never experimented but I feel like a 10% survival rate would actually be good in a KSA solo.

Many players will develop their own rules to equalize the toughness of the solos. I personally let my kids roll-up 3 to 5 characters and let them pick their best one. Others allow mulligans. Others just add a "the Second" to the characters name and go right back through and try again. And if you really are looking for a survivor you go for the burly rolled dwarf warrior. They will die, too, but higher chance of survival for sure.

Net: Solos are generally tough and getting 1 out of 10 through is a success for that character. Hopefully you are entertained even in the 9 deaths. Folks will react differently to the death ratios but generally its better for replay-ability and gets you more attached to the actual survivors.

I did take adds. My Wizard had a +1 from their 13 DEX, and my Rogue had a +5 from their 17 Luck.

I think I'm starting to understand, though. Failure streaks are normal. A shame Warriors are the only really viable characters, but I now understand why so many adventures insist you play one.

Now I just need to figure out how to better handle the character creation process.

[stefanj]

Ken's solos are indeed terribly deadly!

Solos are often warrior-only because it is hard to handle magic in a flexible way.

In "The Necropolis of Vaarh," I tried to put in lots of escape routes from combat, in which magic use gives big boosts. Hidey-Hole, flight spells, Alaka-Zoom, etc.

[ProfGremlin]

Dinner is imminent so I need to make this brief:

1) If you die in a solo, permanently burn one point of Luck and return to the previous paragraph to make a different decision. Consider it your Luck burning off as you use your hitherto unknown powers of precognition. Pushing Your Luck

2) How to Survive a Solo

3) Oh, yeah, I roll 4d6 and drop the lowest unless triples (Triples Add and Roll Over). I then proceed to roll at least five sets of stats, in order, as published. I'll then pick the set that seems most survivable (most of the time with the highest adds unless that gives a low Con) and create a character from them. With character death a feature in many early solos, might as well roll-up several 'sleeves' and pick the best before I get started.

Hope that gets you started

[darrght]

Mar 30, 2022 19:11:38 GMT -5 ProfGremlin said:

Dinner is imminent so I need to make this brief:

1) If you die in a solo, permanently burn one point of Luck and return to the previous paragraph to make a different decision. Consider it your Luck burning off as you use your hitherto unknown powers of precognition. Pushing Your Luck

2) How to Survive a Solo

3) Oh, yeah, I roll 4d6 and drop the lowest unless triples (Triples Add and Roll Over). I then proceed to roll at least five sets of stats, in order, as published. I'll then pick the set that seems most survivable (most of the time with the highest adds unless that gives a low Con) and create a character from them. With character death a feature in many early solos, might as well roll-up several 'sleeves' and pick the best before I get started.

Hope that gets you started

I knew someone, probably ProfGremlin , would find the threads you needed shinmajin

[mgtremaine]

"I get five MR 200 giant lizards"... Well ouch. Don't be afraid to apply a little combat logic at times also. There is no way all 5 giant lizards can reach you in a single round. Granted that would not save a first level Wizard but it's good lesson in controlling some of the odd dice throws. If you have to get a piece a paper out and draw the combat area, or use mini's, do it. That way you can judge what is and is not possible. Solo's are usually 1 character so remember that you vs 20 is not fair and also probably not logically possible given space limits. T&T solo's are deadly because they have to have some kind of replay-ability, but rule #1 is still have fun with it.

-Mike

[shinmajin]

Mar 31, 2022 7:29:13 GMT -5 mgtremaine said:

"I get five MR 200 giant lizards"... Well ouch. Don't be afraid to apply a little combat logic at times also. There is no way all 5 giant lizards can reach you in a single round. Granted that would not save a first level Wizard but it's good lesson in controlling some of the odd dice throws. If you have to get a piece a paper out and draw the combat area, or use mini's, do it. That way you can judge what is and is not possible. Solo's are usually 1 character so remember that you vs 20 is not fair and also probably not logically possible given space limits. T&T solo's are deadly because they have to have some kind of replay-ability, but rule #1 is still have fun with it.

-Mike

Ha, I actually almost did a bit of combat logic in the form of "I'm a harpy, I can fly, you can't, goodbye," but realized this particular bit of logic would just be far, far too cheesy.

[alkazar]

You could always try easier solo modules, there are a few about, and many of them are made by T&T players.
One of my favorite beginner adventures is the free solo module Castle Ironwood. It's a very easy adventure, with more exploring and puzzle solving than combat.

Another is goblin lake, which I believe comes with the free quick start rules here. It expects you to play as a goblin your first time through, which I recommend.

Also if you don't have an account with DrivethruRPG then I highly recommend you make one as you'll very likely be delving for TrollZine which also has some nice solo mods of various difficulties. 

It's mostly trial and error.

[Rat Salad]

One thing, in my mind, that makes T&T different than the "other game(s)" at the time is the approach to ruleset. Given the spartan mechanics, combined with Ken St. Andre's approach to the concept, its built in that you "figure it out"...you change it if it's broke, doesn't work, etc. It's difficult to find another system with that sort of open approach to, at least, the core mechanics, and I think it makes T&T a special game, and as deadly as those solos can be (as many have pointed out), you'll need to "flow around the rock" sometimes instead of trying to move it by opening up your options.

It's usually more of a "do as the rules say" with rpgs. The bigshot game had that "the rules are law" approach. At least we were always too intimidated to be looser with it. So, with this philosophy, you want to be open and willing to "house rule" things, change a few things, and come up with other ways. Solos, given their very nature and lack of options, demand it. So, if you have a single wizard, for instance, and you get five MR 200 giant lizards, you might decide to approach it differently (or not!). Could it be that it's actually only two...maybe you could intimidate them by going berserker/suicidal on them (improvise a roll of some sorts...maybe a luck check at a certain level?), so that three of them flee, leaving one or two to fight? Maybe another roll determines that an NPC warrior shows up to help out? These probably aren't very good solutions, but I find I stay alive longer in extreme situations by thinking that way. The problem with solo play though, is you have to be choosy when you do this, or you'll develop some situation way outside of the boundaries of the story as it's written, and then you aren't playing that adventure, but one of your own. I struggled with this very thing, so, over the years, I developed my own solo-way of playing (article coming up in Trollzine 13)...maybe something there would inspire you, so check that out and see what you think. To use a pre-written adventure using some of that approach, you just have to be thinking of more ways to improvise the situation, combined with more dice that give you options (d6s with various symbols, such as a "yes"/"no" die, a trap die, an surprise item die, etc.). In fact, the usual way I play solo is to literally create the story improvising and using the dice, though, I have to admit it's come in handy during seemingly impossible to face circumstances in the solo modules that aren't my own.

If possible, you can always have a bigger stable of characters too, of course, not just one...that's going to get your combat totals up to a reasonable amount. Finding a buddy to play with...even one, can greatly increase your survival too, because if you both go thru it together, with a couple of characters, and you are open to you partners improvisational solutions, that doubles things quite a bit.

Anyhow, just some thoughts and ideas shinmajin. Hopefully, that helps a bit. Combine a the general philosophy of being loose and open to the options, along with all the great ideas submitted here, and go at it again!

[order99]

Mar 31, 2022 8:52:07 GMT -5 shinmajin said:

Mar 31, 2022 7:29:13 GMT -5 mgtremaine said:

"I get five MR 200 giant lizards"... Well ouch. Don't be afraid to apply a little combat logic at times also. There is no way all 5 giant lizards can reach you in a single round. Granted that would not save a first level Wizard but it's good lesson in controlling some of the odd dice throws. If you have to get a piece a paper out and draw the combat area, or use mini's, do it. That way you can judge what is and is not possible. Solo's are usually 1 character so remember that you vs 20 is not fair and also probably not logically possible given space limits. T&T solo's are deadly because they have to have some kind of replay-ability, but rule #1 is still have fun with it.

-Mike

Ha, I actually almost did a bit of combat logic in the form of "I'm a harpy, I can fly, you can't, goodbye," but realized this particular bit of logic would just be far, far too cheesy.

Honestly, it makes perfect sense! No Solo can be written with every eventuality in mind (which is why RP-ing as a group is as awesome as it is!) Besides, i'm sure the Encounters would have eventually generated a flying creature that might have killed you...

[nebless]

While T&T adventures don't generally say 'for level 1's, 5's etc......', they should say 'for characters with X number of add's' and that's what you can go by for what level of character you should run through the adventure. The lower the number of add's, they lower level of the character it's intended for.