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Post by andreww on Apr 25, 2022 4:51:58 GMT -5
I've been wondering about this recently - since itch.io is the home of a lot of indie RPG tabletop stuff these days with a lot of very creative folks. It's a community site for indie video games, but there's also a ton of tabletop content on there.
For those unfamiliar a game jam is an event with a set timeframe (say, a month) where creators make something around a theme, basically a spur for creativity among the gaming community. It's an idea borrowed from videogame development that has in the last decade or so (I think) been adopted by tabletop roleplaying creators too. People could submit anything T&T related, adventures, classes, houserule docs, rules hacks, or whatever.
I know there are ongoing things such as Trollzine etc, but one thing about itch.io that piques my interest is the visibility - T&T seems like an awesome game that operates somewhat inside a very small niche. I also think it operated waaaaaaay ahead of its time with some themes that a lot of indie games are interested in, namely universal mechanics (SR) and rules light, narrative roleplaying.
I would hope there wouldn't be any legal issues, provided I set one of the rules for the jam being that all submissions must be free and users cannot profit from them, and a disclaimer must be included stating the submission is third party and not associated with T&T officially.
Thoughts?
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Apr 25, 2022 5:35:45 GMT -5
Sounds interesting. I know nothing about itch.io (I barely venture into reddit and that's been a thing for a while now) but any creativity steered towards generating interest in T&T has to be a good thing. Reminds me of 1KM1KT (1000 monkeys 1000 typewriters) which used to be active till a few years ago where people would churn out RPGs. I *think* that's where Simon Washbourne started out with Barbarians of Lemuria and that went somewhere. Most is no art shovelware/house rules but there are gems in there too. Different to what you're suggesting - that's more specific T&T stuff from the sounds of it which is never a bad thing. www.1km1kt.net/
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Apr 25, 2022 6:02:05 GMT -5
Also as a quick add (before I go to work) it would be easy enough skirt round the legal stuff with a 'compatible with the 2nd oldest Fantasy RPG that uses buckets of D6s' or similar instead of 'compatible/made for T&T' as there are legal issues, quality control and someone will want a cut of something I expect. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by hankonthehill on Apr 26, 2022 4:47:11 GMT -5
Tunnels Perfect is a re-working of T&T with different stat names (Luck, Wiz, & Cha are rolled into Mojo, 3! different flavours of dexterity), different save numbers and different terminology (Situation Rolls, Melee Rating, Situation Dice), and type/kin rolled into a 'do it yourself blob (as is magic). From what I can tell, it's designed to put out content that can be used with T&T without treading on anyone's toes.
The document is PWYW, but the writing is so horrible I had to noodle a re-write to make any sense of it. TP does use the tagline 'Framework for the 1975 tradition' which could tie a game jam together without offending WS. Using the title 'Tunnels Perfect' is verboten, but the licence on P5 of the document is pretty self-explanatory.
I doubt any T&T players out there are unaware of The Bridge or Tavernmaster Games (I've been lurking for longer than I'd care to admit), so a '1975 Tradition' jam is unlikely to bring new blood to the game. It might take the pressure off TB & TMG's valiant efforts at keeping the game alive.
Before anyone asks, I'm not Thomas W. Simpson. I'm a fat, middle-aged dude living in Wales and the only thing I can tell you about Linux is that it has something to do with penguins.
And wow did I use a lot of words to say 'Tunnels Perfect coined the term 1975 tradtion. That could be useful for a game jam!"
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Post by andreww on Apr 27, 2022 7:34:16 GMT -5
Hmm interesting stuff guys, thanks for the replies. Perhaps I should simply contact Webbed Sphere first?
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darrght
4th Level Troll
Wow, I'm a 4th Level Troll!
Posts: 440
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Post by darrght on Apr 27, 2022 14:43:47 GMT -5
Tunnels Perfect is a re-working of T&T with different stat names (Luck, Wiz, & Cha are rolled into Mojo, 3! different flavours of dexterity), different save numbers and different terminology (Situation Rolls, Melee Rating, Situation Dice), and type/kin rolled into a 'do it yourself blob (as is magic). From what I can tell, it's designed to put out content that can be used with T&T without treading on anyone's toes. The document is PWYW, but the writing is so horrible I had to noodle a re-write to make any sense of it. TP does use the tagline 'Framework for the 1975 tradition' which could tie a game jam together without offending WS. Using the title 'Tunnels Perfect' is verboten, but the licence on P5 of the document is pretty self-explanatory. I doubt any T&T players out there are unaware of The Bridge or Tavernmaster Games (I've been lurking for longer than I'd care to admit), so a '1975 Tradition' jam is unlikely to bring new blood to the game. It might take the pressure off TB & TMG's valiant efforts at keeping the game alive. Before anyone asks, I'm not Thomas W. Simpson. I'm a fat, middle-aged dude living in Wales and the only thing I can tell you about Linux is that it has something to do with penguins. And wow did I use a lot of words to say 'Tunnels Perfect coined the term 1975 tradtion. That could be useful for a game jam!" Thanks hankonthehill for giving my colleagues and I at TavernMaster Games some kudos. Nice to know we are appreciated
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Post by hankonthehill on Apr 28, 2022 4:18:15 GMT -5
No problem, darrght you guys deserve it!
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Apr 30, 2022 22:40:01 GMT -5
Itch.io doesn't have a lot of visibility... it's starting to gain some, but it's still in the hinterlands...
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Post by andreww on May 5, 2022 2:14:49 GMT -5
Itch.io doesn't have a lot of visibility... it's starting to gain some, but it's still in the hinterlands... This is true, but there are a fair amount of the ultra small press/indie side of the OSR people using it - and it's specifically these types of people I can see loving T&T once they got how it works. Especially people that have been following the whole 'Free Kriegspiel' line of thought in the last few years. As for mainstream recognition, that seems fairly hopeless to me given the sprawling hegemony of a certain edition of a certain Other Game!
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Post by Aramis of Erak on May 6, 2022 21:20:30 GMT -5
Itch.io doesn't have a lot of visibility... it's starting to gain some, but it's still in the hinterlands... This is true, but there are a fair amount of the ultra small press/indie side of the OSR people using it - and it's specifically these types of people I can see loving T&T once they got how it works. Especially people that have been following the whole 'Free Kriegspiel' line of thought in the last few years. As for mainstream recognition, that seems fairly hopeless to me given the sprawling hegemony of a certain edition of a certain Other Game! And, with an "already defeated" attitude like that, there's zero chance you'll actually make a meaningful dent. The indie crowd doesn't even hit 1% of the evidenced play; further, each indie game is usually one of many for each purchaser... so it's not likely to spread from there. Plus, T&T really doesn't jibe with many indy-gamers' sensibilities.
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Post by andreww on May 7, 2022 1:48:28 GMT -5
This is true, but there are a fair amount of the ultra small press/indie side of the OSR people using it - and it's specifically these types of people I can see loving T&T once they got how it works. Especially people that have been following the whole 'Free Kriegspiel' line of thought in the last few years. As for mainstream recognition, that seems fairly hopeless to me given the sprawling hegemony of a certain edition of a certain Other Game! And, with an "already defeated" attitude like that, there's zero chance you'll actually make a meaningful dent. The indie crowd doesn't even hit 1% of the evidenced play; further, each indie game is usually one of many for each purchaser... so it's not likely to spread from there. Plus, T&T really doesn't jibe with many indy-gamers' sensibilities. Wow, thanks for the "encouragement". When I say indie, I don't mean forge style storygaming. I mean OSR/rules light, people getting into OSR, Knave, Whitehack, Into The Odd and the like. I think the ethos behind T&T is very similar for a lot of those people (creativity, don't let the rules get in the way, high lethality and simplicity, explore and get crazy).
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Post by Aramis of Erak on May 7, 2022 5:34:52 GMT -5
I know the type... they're not likely to spread things, and to be blunt, they're a really tiny slice, too. Unlike the other kind of indie, they don't even rise to notice save for those already tied to specific system, mostly, these days, OSE, DCC, S&W, or C&C. And those crowds, as groups, aren't looking for outside systems. They're looking for content they can run in the system they have mentally invested in... mostly trees off the Moldvay D&D cloning phase.
Itch isn't going to be worth the time, since it's unlikely to reach an audience that matters.
The way forward can be seen by looking at what's working... filmed play by enthusiastic and entertaining players, with the content being made available in adventure format... and, to get noticed by the OSR crowd (most of those interested in non-D&D already are aware of T&T), dual-stat them for OSE, DCC, &or C&C.
Filmed Play is an awesome thing... Critical Role, Tabletop, Dial the Gate's special for SG-1... and more.
Twitch, not itch, is the way to expand T&T interest.
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Post by ProfGremlin on May 7, 2022 9:09:12 GMT -5
If I may offer an alternative viewpoint?
Who cares if T&T grows in the marketplace? Is the validity of the game we love dependent on marketshare? For all we know, the plans Webbed Sphere has could run the spectrum from creating their own web based platform for the T&T community to rival that of Roll20 and D&D Beyond combined or decide that the acquisition of FBI and T&T was a poor decision and shelve it. No matter where the future lands on that spectrum, or beyond it, we still have the materials in our possession and some fantastic memories of playing.
We play T&T because it offers a framework we're comfortable with to tell the stories we want to explore. Gaming, at its heart, is collaborative storytelling. Each table has a slightly different mix of who contributes what but it's all about telling a story with your friends. The specific medium is irrelevant.
Critical Role didn't gain popularity because they used 5E, they started out with Pathfinder. Their initial draw had to do with engaging characters and a compelling story, not the game system. Sure, it grew from there but the focus has always been a group of friends playing a game to tell a story.
If itch.io, or any other platform, lets folks get together to tell a story and have fun doing so, then do it. Enjoy the journey. Let the industry do what it's going to do. The best ambassadorship we can offer is to play the games we love and show others how to have fun telling stories through those systems. Don't worry about who the loudest monkey is in the room, just have fun swinging through the trees.
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Post by andreww on May 7, 2022 16:47:29 GMT -5
^ ProfGremlin, that's basically my thoughts behind this originally. If I can get one person interested in a new game, or if a jam just ends up creating a tiny handful of adventures/monster/maps for T&T specifically, it would be worth it for me. RPGs are about creativity first and foremost for me. I can see what Aramis means now I re-read my original post though - it could easily be interpreted as someone wanting to do a big push with a media savvy angle (that's not for me) and I did stress itch.io for its visibility which was probably misleading. Basically I've gotten recently inspired by T&T and have had difficulty finding much interest in it in the wild, even by old RPG standards.
Personally I think Critical Role is not necessarily A Good Thing, but that's another thread for another time.
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Post by jdrakeh on May 10, 2022 2:05:47 GMT -5
Itch.io doesn't have a lot of visibility... it's starting to gain some, but it's still in the hinterlands... FWIW, I've made more money selling my own little games on itch than I ever have on DriveThruRPG. The key is that I have to promote the heck out of it. I post on Twitter and Facebook every time I release a new game. Sometimes on ENWorld. I'd definitely be down to participate in a T&T Jam on itch.
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