CHAOS MAGIC discussion...

[apn]

Rather than bog down the Game or OOC threads with chit chat about how spells work/don't work/why won't they work/it worked fine before why have you messed with it (delete as applicable) I thought it might be an idea to split it off to chat in here.

If need be we can ask the forum as a whole for opinions but I'm not sure it would interest anyone else. That said it's always good to get different opinions so who knows?

Anyway, the first draft of the Chaos Magic variant spellbook level 1...

DISCLAIMER: Other than Take That You Fiend! I had no idea what a Chaos variant of each spell would be like. I also altered the cost of Unerring Blade as it is very useful to certain characters in our game and much more useful than the spell as originally written. I'd put it as 'at least as, if not more' useful than Take That You Fiend! in the right circumstances!!!

The other spells I took a look at what they did, had a quick think and whacked some ideas down then moved onto the next spell. This is about as rough a draft as can be, so there will be typos and maybe I messed up costs or things are not as balanced as they should be. Hopefully we'll iron out any wrinkles then get onto the question of who should be able to cast spells like this. All Wizards? Some? Can they still cast the standard spells as per DT&T? What about Rogues? And so on...

Remember, this is a rough first draft!!!







The page breaks come out odd when printing out as an image to put in the post/thread but I'll sort out the formatting in the next version after this one has been picked apart and put back together. Alternately I can post up in straight forum text without any formatting so it can be quoted/copied/pasted. Good either way. 

Thoughts? Some of the spells need a rewrite and junking, interested to hear your opinions on which ones (all? Dammit!)...

EDIT: Already found a typo on the last page (my adding up. If the target is 20 it should read, not 17... doh)

[mosker]

This is significant: move again to the main Characters and magic sub-forum?

[houndle]

Wow, Impressive piece of work, I like the additional clarifications to some spells and the enhancements which will make them more useful in certain situations... I always felt that under the old rules there were some spells that were of very limited use. Are you planning to update "natty beard"?

Some of the calculations may be difficult to remember (divide by 5 / 7 / 12 etc) but that is possibly a consequence of the way T&T works generally. Anyway magicians are supposed to be clever...

Is there a small bit of confusion with knock-knock? The text "potency reduces" sounds like it belongs to lock tight?

[nialldubh]

As Will says, I mean Houndle...

Yeah, will have a look later, that is a lot of work.

I enjoying this random effect, magic should not be that easy, hence the Wizard's need to concentrate on casting, which in theory could take on average a minute to cast?

[nialldubh]

Well, would want to copy this stuff, so I not want to type it myself, I can make a good PDF of it etc., with pictures and give it folks to download?

[apn]

Needs tweaking/fixing/spells tidying up first. I was in the process of:

1) Updating the posts
2) Updating the Chaos Spell Book with a table for easy work out Chaos Magic Dice

when my mum and her partner came round and started fussing over the toilet. Three hours later after replacing all the parts inside the toilet I hope it don't flood the house... All I said was 'the flush is a bit iffy if you need to use the loo but it works' and mole grips, towels to soak up water, trips to screwfix and plumb centre (or whatever it called now) later it's hopefully sorted.

Next time I'll keep my gob shut.

[apn]

Updated the last page. What a faff. Copy/paste from an image hosting site then the forum software adds its bit and... let's just say it wasn't a straightforward process. Anyway, added the table to generate Chaos Magic points. Tweaked the spell description for Knock Knock and changed the typo/maths of Will o The Wisp casting.

Right! Back to our scheduled programming

[apn]

Here you go nialldubh

(and anyone else)

Rough Draft version 1 - needs play testing, tweaking, changing, laying out properly and all that...

DOWNLOAD PDF ROUGH DRAFT VER 1

EDIT no. Will keep searching for an option to upload the file...

Try...

filebin.net/wolzkayc5h7xnumx

[nialldubh]

** For quick reference: Add text per spell to tell which school it comes from.


** Are the CMP accumulative from previous spells cast?

Example: Üdhaav cast a Detect Magic and generates (IQ 20: 4d6) 2,3,2,2, Total: 9.

Hmm, ah power up: x3 for a total cost of 4 WIZ: (+12d6) 2, 5,1, 1, 3, 5, 1, 1, 3, 1, 6, 2, Total: 31. (five 1s, one 6).

Darn: Implodes: 4d6 (5,6,1,5,) Total: -17, something not want this example to work...

So, 9 +31 = 40, -17 = 23 total points.

Still, he is holding item and uses 12 CMP, he left with 11 CMP, he cannot do much with the 11 CMP for same spell.

So, I try and quickly get to end of this question...

What happens to the remaining 11 CMP, is this stored or dispelled?

If stored can it add to other spells cast (considering the Chaos factor)?

Probably not, but it worth asking...


** Will o the Wisp: Perhaps just a power up effect to generate the light of a torch, a bonfire or the light from the sun perhaps?

[apn]

Good question! I'd say if not used it gets released in an obvious whiff of smoke/energy that tells everyone around that this guy is an unlicensed practitioner messing around with the forces of the universe/stuff he doesn't know much about/darn why didn't I read the instructions (delete as applicable).

I suppose I envisioned Chaos Magic points as 'droppping all restraints and limitations and blasting massive power at the problem' rather than the tried and trusted 'use this much energy in this certain way and say these things and it works fine 100% of the time'.

Maybe some kind of SR to 'catch' the unused energy to use as adds in the next round or two to the next spell? What happens if that fails? Maybe there are otherworldly entities that feed on Chaos Magic, or police its use (hence why Wizards on Trollword switched to the tried and tested and don't speak about 'the other kind'). Maybe using it too much will cause an interdimensional war where another realm is being affected by the improper use of magic and they send the lads round to kick your teeth in? Might open up all sorts of new adventuring opportunities/chances to get a battering (delete as... etc).

Maybe a Saving Throw on IQ for 1 level per round you intend to capture the chaos points adding the number of CMP to the target number. If you pass? Great! Use the points up as adds to your next spell! If not...? Roll on a table. Something bad is going to happen, but how bad...?

[apn]

Thinking about it, using Chaos Magic and having 'spare' floating about then trying to snag it, sweep it up, ball it, contain it and add to it with another spell... It's be like the Sorcerers Apprentice where everything is going nuts - plates rattling, windows blowing out, wind howling, dogs and cats getting on with each other... Maybe not the last one.

The advantage of casting a spell, gathering up the Chaos Magic Points and using them towards your next spell would obviously be 'More POWER!' but the risks should improve dramatically too. Having a take that you fiend! cast by a 1st level Wizard against a dragon might hurt a dragon slightly more than the standard (or less, depending on if houndle or I are rolling) but what if that wizard gathered one, caught it, two, caught, three rounds of Chaos magic together and unleashed it? All of a sudden the Dragon wonders why it has a hole in its side!

That would make the Wizard very powerful so the risks in using the magic in that way would have to be absolutely enormous. Crazy levels of SRs and lots of multiple DAROs. A standard 1st level Wizard would blast a Dragon with their 14 IQ and the Dragon would eat them. A 1st level Wizard balling up lots of CMP and throwing them around would surely attract the attention of ... 'interested parties'? 'Higher powers'? 'Dark Lords'? As in... 'Wait, they did what with a spell? I need to speak to this guy! Got get him for me!'

So in summary:

I would say it might be possible to gather CMP from multiple rounds but a mechanic needs to be in place to contain it and merge with the new bundle of CMP and the penalty for failure should be severe indeed! Even if you succeed, someone should take notice somewhere... Hence Chaos Magic was banned from Wizards Guilds and the practitioners hunted down and silenced, to stamp out the problem. Witch Hunter character class anyone?

[mosker]

Dec 16, 2022 14:30:02 GMT -5 apn said:

So in summary:

I would say it might be possible to gather CMP from multiple rounds but a mechanic needs to be in place to contain it and merge with the new bundle of CMP and the penalty for failure should be severe indeed! Even if you succeed, someone should take notice somewhere... Hence Chaos Magic was banned from Wizards Guilds and the practitioners hunted down and silenced, to stamp out the problem. Witch Hunter character class anyone?

Almost like a magic vacuum or air filter. That said, I can picture such magical power being even more unstable, unrefined--almost dirty. I'm loathe to suggest complications, but imagine the side effects of spells cast with it or potential backfires or...talking definitely GM adjudication territory (save the cool stuff for multiplayer games. Solos can simply have an effectiveness penalty)

[mahrundl]

I'd suggest that building up a 'charge' would require sufficiently close to a Wizard's full attention that holding the current level and building it further should be all that they can do. Casting a spell while charged can only be done to further build the charge - all of the CMP generated by the spell get added to the charge, and the spell has no other effect - or when you cast the spell that you want to use the charge for. I'd also think that in the latter case, you'd lose some charge as you focus on getting the spell off - 1 point per level of the spell being cast, or perhaps D6 per level.  I'd allow a saving roll to avoid such leakage, mostly because that opens up the opportunity for a fumble...

Your Wizard will need someone protecting him while he builds his charge, or that dragon will have him for lunch while he's distracted!

Unrelated to this system, there's a level 25 spell in Mahrundl's Big Book o' Spells called Chaos. I can't tell you what it does, because it changes with every casting. You can find it here (right at the end of that post) if you're curious.

[nialldubh]

Dec 16, 2022 14:18:52 GMT -5 apn said:

Good question! I'd say if not used it gets released in an obvious whiff of smoke/energy that tells everyone around that this guy is an unlicensed practitioner messing around with the forces of the universe/stuff he doesn't know much about/darn why didn't I read the instructions (delete as applicable).

Maybe a Saving Throw on IQ for 1 level per round you intend to capture the chaos points adding the number of CMP to the target number. If you pass? Great! Use the points up as adds to your next spell! If not...? Roll on a table. Something bad is going to happen, but how bad...?

I would say it might be possible to gather CMP from multiple rounds but a mechanic needs to be in place to contain it and merge with the new bundle of CMP and the penalty for failure should be severe indeed! Even if you succeed, someone should take notice somewhere... Hence Chaos Magic was banned from Wizards Guilds and the practitioners hunted down and silenced, to stamp out the problem. Witch Hunter character class anyone?

 
Yeah, something to think about.

As the CMP is erratic it might work for awhile, but any excess is so dangerous, that a Wizard/Rogue need to disperse it carefully or it will tear them apart?! 

Dec 16, 2022 17:52:19 GMT -5 mahrundl said:

I'd allow a saving roll to avoid such leakage, mostly because that opens up the opportunity for a fumble...

lol, Yeah, poor bastard if he fumbles with an excess of 50 CMP, he would be eviscerated.

[apn]

Just a quick snippet before I go get ready for work (05:27 on a Sunday morning, living the dream...)...

Just for clarity so all the stuff flying around doesn't turn into a jumble (more for me than anyone else):

Normal DT&T magic is the tried and trusted 'approved' method of casting spells in the world.

Chaos Magic is the 'we tried to bury it but some lunatics insist on trying to blow themselves and everyone else up' version. The official Wizards Guild has a big no-no policy and possibly even a reward to hunt down and bring in Chaos Magic Practitioners. Dead or Alive.

Chaos Magic is normal magic turned up, without restraints, limits, guidance or sense. For sure it can work like ordinary spells do and most people wouldn't know the difference. It can also work horribly wrong (and hurt or kill you and those around you) or far better than expected ('You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off' as they stand looking at the ruin where a castle had been stood before).

The Mechanics:

It still costs Wiz to cast a spell. In effect to 'open the door' to magical energy which is normally neatly steered, shaped, funnelled into the desired effect and the spell goes off as planned.

Once the Wiz is cast roll 2D6 per 7 points of IQ and any remainder as adds. Note that the Implode/Explode rules apply where an extra die is rolled if you roll a 1 (Implode) or 6 (Explode). The two cancel each other out on a 1:1 basis. Any remaining Implode dice reduce your Chaos Magic Points (CMP) total. Any remaining Explode dice increase your Chaos Magic Points (CMP) total.

If you end up with a negative CMP total this is immediately applied as damage to you (and, optionally, to those around you. I think this needs to be a thing hence the Wizards guild getting so uppity about it. At some point someone will have blow themselves and someone important up and Kingdoms gone to war over it, so the Wizards Guild had to do something...). Our house rules allow damage to spread out amongst most of your stats but Con takes the least damage in that method. Str, Dex, Spd, IQ etc all suffer increased damage per point of damage. You might still survive the blast, but it will hurt for a while, give you a limp, scar, broken arm etc.

If you haven't blown yourself or anyone else up the Chaos Magic Points you have can then be applied to the spell you are casting. You spend on Duration, Range, Range of Effect (diameter/area) and any remainder go on 'Special Effects' which go above and beyond the remit of the original spell. The GM describes the results and hopefully all is well.

Where things get tricky is when you decide not to cast the spell (but generate the CMP) or decide to retain/keep the spare CMP for another spell. Initial thoughts are that you will need to decide (up front) how many rounds you are holding onto the Chaos Magic Points which becomes the IQ level Saving Throw required PLUS a modifier of how many CMP you are holding onto. You might hold onto a stash of CMP for only one round (L1SR) but if it's 50 CMP you are looking at a L1SR with a target number of 70.

Good luck with that.

I propose failure to 'hold on' to the Chaos Magic Points results in damage equal to 1 point for every point of difference between the saving throw target number and your roll of DARO + IQ.

Perhaps 1 damage reduction for every foot away from the blast, so 20' away reduces damage to everyone in that area by 20.

Example:

Gonzarmo the Magnificent got over his initial terror of using Chaos Magic and now is ready to try for the big leagues! His CMP total of 40 can produce a decent Take That You Fiend! but he wants to keep hold of those points and combine them with more points to blast at a Troll the party is facing! He states that he will hold the CMP for 1 round and this gives a L1SR +40 target number. Suddenly this is not a good idea.

DARO + IQ gives Gonzarmo a total of ... 28 (target number for the L1SR +40 is SIXTY!). That's 32 points short which translates into damage immediately to Gonzarmo and the surrounding area. His friends are 3 - 6 feet away and take reduced damage (from 29 up close to 26 damage six feet away) and Gonzarmo is blasted for the full amount at 'Ground Zero'. The trolls will take some of that from their Monster Ratings but for the most part will brush it off. The Delvers aren't so lucky...

Aside from blasting all of his friends with Chaos Magic Point damage that ignores armour (like a TTYF! does) the surrounding area (a cavern with stalactites and such) is affected and starts a cave in!

The resulting Chaos means the party don't get the Troll they are after and the Troll itself has a good story to tell its buddies whilst picking the meat off roasted Hobb later on...

Right, work time! More later (including game update)...