|
|
Post by houndle on Mar 20, 2023 13:29:20 GMT -5
Conclusion: T&T delvers are really analogous to mechs and robots, and AP allows casual swapping out of parts, insertion of upgrades. I was also thinking of a more radical version whereby delvers could increase some attributes by reducing others. I had in mind the example of a wizard building his kremm by reducing Strength, say (neglecting health while burning the midnight oil). In those situations there might also be a multiplier by character type. e.g. (not a word to apn ) perhaps Will (from Days of High Adventure) ought to find it more difficult to increase his WIZ. As a non-magic user it's simply an alien concept to him. I've drafted a few thoughts, but they are on the back burner for now as being possibly too complicated. |
|
apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578 
|
Post by apn on Mar 20, 2023 16:38:42 GMT -5
That's not a bad idea. With only a few classes I can see problems but it must be easier to increase Str/Dex/Con/Luck/Per (Speed) than IQ/Wiz/Cha for a Warrior. Of course as a GM I would consider it a duty to require more tests of IQ/Wiz/Cha just... because  |
|
|
|
Post by houndle on Mar 21, 2023 2:08:30 GMT -5
That's not a bad idea. With only a few classes I can see problems but it must be easier to increase Str/Dex/Con/Luck/Per (Speed) than IQ/Wiz/Cha for a Warrior. Of course as a GM I would consider it a duty to require more tests of IQ/Wiz/Cha just... because I was thinking Charisma should increase in tandem with Strength as Will transforms from a 90lb fop to a Conan-alike, no? |
|
apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
|
Post by apn on Mar 21, 2023 3:18:47 GMT -5
That's not a bad idea. With only a few classes I can see problems but it must be easier to increase Str/Dex/Con/Luck/Per (Speed) than IQ/Wiz/Cha for a Warrior. Of course as a GM I would consider it a duty to require more tests of IQ/Wiz/Cha just... because I was thinking Charisma should increase in tandem with Strength as Will transforms from a 90lb fop to a Conan-alike, no? Ah going for the 'Crush enemy, see dem driven before you' look? He's going to need some epic hair straighteners I feel. An 80s bubble perm will increase the level of SR required. Conan the musical |
|
trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 373
|
Post by trolletgunnar on Mar 21, 2023 5:33:13 GMT -5
Conclusion: T&T delvers are really analogous to mechs and robots, and AP allows casual swapping out of parts, insertion of upgrades. I was also thinking of a more radical version whereby delvers could increase some attributes by reducing others. I had in mind the example of a wizard building his kremm by reducing Strength, say (neglecting health while burning the midnight oil). In those situations there might also be a multiplier by character type. e.g. (not a word to apn ) perhaps Will (from Days of High Adventure) ought to find it more difficult to increase his WIZ. As a non-magic user it's simply an alien concept to him. I've drafted a few thoughts, but they are on the back burner for now as being possibly too complicated. It's a little bit like in od&d, and Holmes d&d and also later version?, where you can lower some attributes to be able to raise prime attributes. |
|
|
|
Post by houndle on Mar 24, 2023 13:41:11 GMT -5
Buffalo Castle, part 2I'd failed to spot that the latest material uploaded by nialldubh was not in fact a revision of L.II as I assumed but an extension of L.I. Now rectified. Sort of... New adventure, new character. Same old dice rolls. I took a warrior with a mediocre +9 adds (just below recommended), a couple of standard daggers and a steel bonnet. All he could afford 🙁. For the most part I randomised the choices when navigating the adventure, eliminating anything which involved backtracking where possible. Shortly after opening the first door he avoided stepping in something nasty by the narrowest of margins (total of 5 required to make a L1SR; rolled 1+ 1 followed by 1 + 2). Then on to the first monster, which he slaughtered fairly easily. Confidence growing after slipping past a couple of traps and winning another combat, then faced with a conundrum. A puzzle guarded by a monster that might help or hinder. I let the dice decide what he was going to do; 8 rounds of combat later the puzzle was unsolved, the monster slain and our hero had lost half his CON and had a big dent in his hat. (I allowed some spite damage to be diverted to armour, a house rule I'm currently playing with to try and mitigate the effects of Spite. They just seem too severe to me at low levels.) Then met another monster which was a pushover, but by this point my character was looking for the exit. Naturally it was guarded, and after another 5-round combat the hero staggered out to breathe the sweet air of freedom. He'd achieved little, and lost a lot, but at least he had survived! As this is not the old Buffalo Castle (though done in a similar style) I'm going to give some additional comments: Balance. Seemed very fair on the whole. Character was poorly equipped for the challenge and suffered accordingly, but survived and learned something about the nature of the challenge. There are some Wandering Monsters borrowed from the original, which I always thought (and still think) are very tough; one of those very nearly wiped out the adventurer towards the end. I must also confess to swapping one of the old wandering monsters for a new one (kept the same dice roll, just used the new chart); the old monster would effectively have been an insta-kill. Content. Nature of the choices and challenges are generally quite similar to the original. nialldubh has spiced it up with a series of "cards" detailing different quests, traps and so forth which adds variety and replay value. Credibility. Probably on a par with the Deluxe version of BC; there is a quest (one of several actually, via the "quest cards"), but necessarily, the narrative is somewhat fragmented by the nature of the adventure. Largely it felt like an "old school dungeon bash", but none the worse for that. Internal consistency. Everything seems to fit together nicely, and noted that there were links to other adventures (for more heroic characters than mine); but also escape clauses for the moribund and cowardly. One final observation. To play it properly you need to refer between I think 3 - 4 documents to retrieve details of wandering monsters, traps, treasure etc. Most of the supporting documents are a couple of pages and could be printed out in advance; however as I tend to play on a small tablet these days it would have been more convenient to have everything in a single document. But there is one advantage in nialldubh 's approach in that the supporting material can easily be ported into other solos. An attractive idea in the right circumstances. **Addendum 26/03/2023 Another couple of tries today. Previous adventurer used again, wiped out in the first paragraph. Slightly unfortunate, got sent to fight a monster which was just too strong. Making some headway slowly but surely - a point of two being scored either way in each combat round - when the net combat totals came out so ridiculously far apart that any stunt I could think of felt like cheating. Back in, new character with slightly better adds, doing well until THREE consecutive fumbles left the character stuck in an oubliette for the rest of time. In both cases it was so clear that the encounters could easily have gone the other way that it felt like a satisfying session even though I didn't get very far.**
|
|
|
|
Post by nialldubh on Mar 24, 2023 14:29:02 GMT -5
Cheers Houndle, I appreciate the criticism (which most were positives.  ). There are new secrets to the new level 1 of BC, many hidden things to find that is not in the original text. |
|
|
|
Post by zanshin on Mar 31, 2023 13:48:36 GMT -5
Post Adventure Thought...Robyn did come out of Buffalo Castle with just enough AP to increase an attribute. My first thought was to build up her Strength enough to wield a proper weapon; but taking that to its logical conclusion I could eventually build her up to the point where she is just like a human. Quite cheaply too as she starts from such a low base. So I'm instituting a new, personal house rule: Where a kindred modifier is less than 1, the AP cost to increase an attribute is multiplied by the inverse of the modifier.
So with modifier of 0.5, increasing Robyn's Strength will cost twice what it would for a human. Other attributes are not affected because the modifier is at least 1. Thus I can still make Robyn stronger if I want, but it will take longer. Any thoughts on this? I think the caveat is really important (i.e. it's only a disadvantage). I think it's a really good rule and will probably adopt it. |
|
|
|
Post by ProfGremlin on Mar 31, 2023 19:23:39 GMT -5
So with modifier of 0.5, increasing Robyn's Strength will cost twice what it would for a human. Other attributes are not affected because the modifier is at least 1. Thus I can still make Robyn stronger if I want, but it will take longer. I think this is one where, if used in a GM adventure I'd want to make sure all the players are on the same page and ok with this house rule. My experience: Many moons ago I was involved in a 7th Seas campaign as a player. My character had, as part of her core concept, access to a magic item. RAW required most magic to be triggered by the characters Drama Dice pool. This pool refreshed at the beginning of each session. RAW leftover Drama Dice became Experience Points for the character. So, I had a choice, nerf a significant part of my character's core concept or accept the fact that all the other characters in play would advance faster as they didn't have to spend Drama Dice for their abilities. Obviously, it was a broken rule. It also made me a rather frustrated player feeling penalized for my choice of character. Based on that experience, I probably wouldn't institute this house rule at my table. Kindred with a lower than 1 modifier are already starting out at a deficit compared to others for that ability score. Why penalize them more for working to improve themselves? |
|
mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 529
|
Post by mosker on Mar 31, 2023 20:46:51 GMT -5
CW: Further thread derailment(s) houndle , I'll delete on request1. I'm lashing back to the early solos, where massive stat altering was the norm. Can anyone think of any published after, say 1985, that did the same? (Did the level advancement changes in 7.x kill this occurance this even more than potential balance problems bringing solo characters to a GM game?) 2. As for <1 stat modifiers, specifically for the physically frail: the impetus for Thread that eventually became about null attributes was a DT&T adventure I was writing for Peryton's Elder Tunnels before the Webbed Sphere implosion where a central conceit was fae kin being totally purged of magic (WIZ=null, not zero--think of the positive and negative benefits of the body not even being able to conduct it, like say electricity) in exchange for boosts to the physical attributes. Think of Elves less as bamboo thin and more like olympic swimmers... (And no, I'm not considering a M!M! conversion--this one was far far far too ingrained in DT&T )
|
|
|
|
Post by houndle on Apr 1, 2023 1:17:52 GMT -5
CW: Further thread derailment(s) houndle , I'll delete on request1. I'm lashing back to the early solos, where massive stat altering was the norm. Can anyone think of any published after, say 1985, that did the same? (Did the level advancement changes in 7.x kill this occurance this even more than potential balance problems bringing solo characters to a GM game?) 2. As for <1 stat modifiers, specifically for the physically frail: the impetus for Thread that eventually became about null attributes was a DT&T adventure I was writing for Peryton's Elder Tunnels before the Webbed Sphere implosion where a central conceit was fae kin being totally purged of magic (WIZ=null, not zero--think of the positive and negative benefits of the body not even being able to conduct it, like say electricity) in exchange for boosts to the physical attributes. Think of Elves less as bamboo thin and more like olympic swimmers... (And no, I'm not considering a M!M! conversion--this one was far far far too ingrained in DT&T ) To derail your derailment slightly... As it happens I went through Naked Doom a few days ago. Although this was the Deluxe version it still uses the attribute multiplier which meant that my 2nd level character (TARO'd on creation) jumped to 6th level after a lucky roll. Interestingly it didn't break the game because most attributes were still in the 9-11 range and there was still the chance of catastrophic failure on various saving rolls. The inverse modifier is something I will probably only use for solos. It just bothered me that the current rules may not penalise non-humans sufficiently in the longer term. Most of my characters don't survive long enough for it to become an issue... |
|
|
|
Post by houndle on Apr 3, 2023 3:47:43 GMT -5
Legends of Ogul-Duhr: Halls of the Gorgon
I really like this adventure. It packs a lot into a small paragraph count. Fairly linear (though with an interesting twist) and some random stuff to keep the attention.
As I'd completed the solo last year, I used the dice to decide what the character(s) would do. Basically random choice after eliminating anything which would cause the character to backtrack. Following on from recent discussions about random choice, this method led me to another discovery. Using a solo in this way is a little more like watching a movie than participating in the adventure, with the attendant emotions when you know the character has made a bad choice. (Whenever I watch the original Salem's Lot movie I can't help wishing the Bonnie Bedelia character had made better choices.) As I'm not that invested in the characters I use for solos, that works for me.
As I often do in solos, I allowed the character to make a saving roll against Spite damage. Level of save = Spite cancelled. (FUMBLE = double Spite!) Given that even a 2d6 monster has about a 1/3 chance of scoring Spite in each round, this felt like a reasonable mitigation.
As usual I will be quite coy about specific events to prevent the account becoming a gigantic spoiler.
So. Beau D'ill the First set off in search of fame, treasure and character advancement. Sorely needed as he could only muster 4 adds. Rather less than I had hoped.
In spite of having a feeble luck score, Beau did well on the first few dice rolls, avoiding a trap and picking up a bag of jewels. He had an epic fight against an insect (hey, it was a big insect) which left him weakened and eventually he succumbed to his own uselessness.
Some time later Beau D'ill the Second came seeking revenge. What he found was a pack of monsters which were way above his capabilities (one of those things which will happen very occasionally). I intervened at this point and allowed Beau to try to run away. Which he did, but managed to run straight off a cliff. Amazingly he survived (1 CON remaining) but the next monster he encountered finished him off before he even pulled out his sword. Beau the Second was marginally better than his predecessor, but not by much. It's fairly clear that certain attributes are likely to be more useful than others.
Beau the Third failed to make it to the entrance. (Too mediocre.)
Beau the Fourth was a more rounded character and managed to avoid the catastrophes that overtook the first two. Heroically battling cockroaches and centipedes he blundered into an obvious trap (I would definitely have chosen a different option) but survived with minor injuries. He approached the lair of the boss monster and... noooo... made exactly the same mistake I made on my first visit to the Halls. No way back from that one.
Beau the Fifth and Sixth decided it was safer and more lucrative to open a tea shop for adventurers coming to the Halls.
Beau the Seventh was a genuine hero. A decent second-level character for whom I had high hopes. He blasted through the early part of the adventure, picking up some treasure and ducking out of an encounter which looked too tough. (Strictly in accordance with the rules!) He did a rather wicked thing which I would not have done, all rather unfortunate, and then faced off against a boss monster. Um. The boss wasn't that tough in absolute terms, but required that the adventurer not blow a saving roll at a critical moment.
Beau the Eighth is even now making his way towards the Gorgon's Halls (and tea rooms)...
Addendum. Beau VIII turned out to be too weak even to deal with a cup of tea. Beau IX turned out to be the strongest challenger to date, but had the same unerring instinct for rolling fumbles at the wrong moment.
Balance Very fair. The solo recommends maximum 20 adds and that seems about right. (Even Beau VII didn't muster quite that many and came close to victory). 20 adds is quite a stretch for a newly rolled character though.
Content As noted above, it feels as though the solo punches above its weight in terms of paragraph count. There are some random paragraphs which add to variety and I think scope for further expansion. (I know there is a part 2.)
Credibility Within the simple objective it works fine. The range of opponents is necessarily somewhat limited by the scenario. For the most part they function as impediments rather than serious threats (unless you are rubbish like Beau the First).
Internal Consistency Generally very good. There was one paragraph which caused a little head scratching when I first read it. I'd recommend drawing out the map and otherwise "go with the flow"; it does make sense but there is a one-way system at one point which you can overthink.
|
|
trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 373
|
Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 3, 2023 4:57:06 GMT -5
Legends of Ogul-Duhr: Halls of the GorgonI really like this adventure. It packs a lot into a small paragraph count. Fairly linear (though with an interesting twist) and some random stuff to keep the attention. As I'd completed the solo last year, I used the dice to decide what the character(s) would do. Basically random choice after eliminating anything which would cause the character to backtrack. Following on from recent discussions about random choice, this method led me to another discovery. Using a solo in this way is a little more like watching a movie than participating in the adventure, with the attendant emotions when you know the character has made a bad choice. (Whenever I watch the original Salem's Lot movie I can't help wishing the Bonnie Bedelia character had made better choices.) As I'm not that invested in the characters I use for solos, that works for me. As I often do in solos, I allowed the character to make a saving roll against Spite damage. Level of save = Spite cancelled. (FUMBLE = double Spite!) Given that even a 2d6 monster has about a 1/3 chance of scoring Spite in each round, this felt like a reasonable mitigation. As usual I will be quite coy about specific events to prevent the account becoming a gigantic spoiler. So. Boh D'ill the First set off in search of fame, treasure and character advancement. Sorely needed as he could only muster 4 adds. Rather less than I had hoped. In spite of having a feeble luck score, Boh did well on the first few dice rolls, avoiding a trap and picking up a bag of jewels. He had an epic fight against an insect (hey, it was a big insect) which left him weakened and eventually he succumbed to his own uselessness. Some time later Boh D'ill the Second came seeking revenge. What he found was a pack of monsters which were way above his capabilities (one of those things which will happen very occasionally). I intervened at this point and allowed Boh to try to run away. Which he did, but managed to run straight off a cliff. Amazingly he survived (1 CON remaining) but the next monster he encountered finished him off before he even pulled out his sword. Boh the Second was marginally better than his predecessor, but not by much. It's fairly clear that certain attributes are likely to be more useful than others. Boh the Third failed to make it to the entrance. (Too mediocre.) Boh the Fourth was a more rounded character and managed to avoid the catastrophes that overtook the first two. Heroically battling cockroaches and centipedes he blundered into an obvious trap (I would definitely have chosen a different option) but survived with minor injuries. He approached the lair of the boss monster and... noooo... made exactly the same mistake I made on my first visit to the Halls. No way back from that one. Boh the Fifth and Sixth decided it was safer and more lucrative to open a tea shop for adventurers coming to the Halls. Boh the Seventh was a genuine hero. A decent second-level character for whom I had high hopes. He blasted through the early part of the adventure, picking up some treasure and ducking out of an encounter which looked too tough. (Strictly in accordance with the rules!) He did a rather wicked thing which I would not have done, all rather unfortunate, and then faced off against a boss monster. Um. The boss wasn't that tough in absolute terms, but required that the adventurer not blow a saving roll at a critical moment. Boh the Eighth is even now making his way towards the Gorgon's Halls (and tea rooms)... Balance Very fair. The solo recommends maximum 20 adds and that seems about right. (Even Boh VII didn't muster quite that many and came close to victory). 20 adds is quite a stretch for a newly rolled character though. Content As noted above, it feels as though the solo punches above its weight in terms of paragraph count. There are some random paragraphs which add to variety and I think scope for further expansion. (I know there is a part 2.) Credibility Within the simple objective it works fine. The range of opponents is necessarily somewhat limited by the scenario. For the most part they function as impediments rather than serious threats (unless you are rubbish like Boh the First). Internal Consistency Generally very good. There was one paragraph which caused a little head scratching when I first read it. I'd recommend drawing out the map and otherwise "go with the flow"; it does make sense but there is a one-way system at one point which you can overthink. I thought It was fun but I had some problemes with the Gorgon part: players run kind of I high risk of petrification with out any was of planning against it, I thought that was a bit sad; but kind of common in solos. Also; I managed to get out alive with one character, but without killing the Gorgon. I didn't know how to handle that with regards to the sequal: is it impossible for that character to paly it, or can I pretend someone else killed the Gorgon. Well it's my game I can do whatever but still it felt like a lose end. All in all a good solo without the instant death paragraphs or fihgt against impossible odds. I'm thinkng about Naked doom the wandering monsters. But I guess that's a part of the charm with Kens solos. |
|
mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 529
|
Post by mosker on Apr 3, 2023 8:07:20 GMT -5
Legends of Ogul-Duhr: Halls of the Gorgon The unforuntate, and now everpresent question (esp. since it's not in my library): suitability for conversion to M!M! and re-entrance into the world in terms of tone and mechanics, especially for a player who for whatever reason may be averse to tweaking rules, circumstances on the fly? |
|
|
|
Post by houndle on Apr 3, 2023 8:29:39 GMT -5
My original intention was to play it with the M!M! rules but due to absent mindedness I ended up using a sort of hybrid version. I don't think there is anything which would cause too many problems.
Actually it would be interesting to do a complete reversal of the central theme, ie make it about a so-called "monster" heroically defending her territory from a dastardly group of "Delvers" (thieves and robbers). Now there's a thought.
|
|
).
