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Post by mahrundl on Apr 5, 2023 8:05:48 GMT -5
I believe that Vin Ahrr Vin investigated backup options some years ago, and to do so would have required paying for an account. And the backups weren't accessible to us - ProBoards* would make them and store them, and restore them if we asked really nicely, but that was all. Some time later, and after several forums software updates, I think that we learned that backups were no longer available at all for customers. (I assume that ProBoards has some sort of data backup for their own use.) That was years ago, and it may have all changed again by now. For a while I was attempting to at least back up all new posts every week or so, by using the search function and saving the page of returned results, but I started getting timeouts when saving most of the result pages, and eventually gave up. That's my recollection, anyway. It was quite a while ago, and I don't guarantee that it is entirely accurate. Also, despite all of the rumours, you can see that the life of a Global Moderator is not entirely comprised of sitting on the couch eating bonbons... * It may not actually have been ProBoards - I think that they took over from the previous hosts somewhat after Vin's investigations - but I don't recall the name of that prior company if so.
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Post by alkazar on Apr 5, 2023 8:33:12 GMT -5
Internet Archive has a good backup. I'm not sure how we could use it. Wayback Machine!
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trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 361
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Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 5, 2023 10:03:21 GMT -5
I tried to publish an adventure for t&t on drive thru rpg, and they said that there were no third-party license available for such content. But when I asked if there was any way to get aroudn it they said:
"Yes! If you're familiar with the Monsters, Monsters system, it is quite similar to Tunnels and Trolls and allows third-party products to be published for it. Adjusting your product to be compatible with Monsters, Monsters will meet our license requirements, and enable customers to tune the mechanics to Tunnels and Trolls as well if they prefer. " So Monster monsters seems to be the way to go.
I still think it's sad that you cannot publish for both systems, but I guess that someone thinks that they will loose money if they allows it.
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Post by alkazar on Apr 5, 2023 11:46:22 GMT -5
I tried to publish an adventure for t&t on drive thru rpg, and they said that there were no third-party license available for such content. But when I asked if there was any way to get around it they said: "Yes! If you're familiar with the Monsters, Monsters system, it is quite similar to Tunnels and Trolls and allows third-party products to be published for it. Adjusting your product to be compatible with Monsters, Monsters will meet our license requirements, and enable customers to tune the mechanics to Tunnels and Trolls as well if they prefer. " So Monster monsters seems to be the way to go. I still think it's sad that you cannot publish for both systems, but I guess that someone thinks that they will loose money if they allows it. A thought occurred to me the other day that perhaps WS is planning to discard the rules of T&T and create their own rpg system from scratch or replacing the current rules with another rpg engine and simply slapping the Tunnels & Trolls moniker on it. If that was the case then they could care less about the old rule system they plan to abandon, only the trademarks (the label "Tunnels & Trolls") are valuable. It would explain why they didn't hit Ken and company with a seven year non comp agreement and why they seem to be cold towards us fans; they know they are probably going to lose us over a swap to a new game engine, so they don't really want us around making trouble. It makes sense why they target anything using the T&T trademarks which support the currently existing game, because these products will not be compatible with the replacement system and allowing them to remain would only create confusion for potential new customers. I feel like they are giving us hints. Like we're a bunch of raccoons congregating on their porch and WS are spraying us with their garden hose. Talking to an annoying woodland critter is pointless, and actions speak louder than words, sooner or later we'll get the message. Another alternative is WS may instead want to license out the T&T trademarks to a third party (ala rolemaster) and just sit back and collect the fees. Which would explain why they're cleaning house as they want to improve the perceived value of the brand. Don't really know, but I guess over the next year we will find out. Of course I'm just speculating and am probably wrong, as usual.
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 520
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Post by mosker on Apr 5, 2023 12:24:52 GMT -5
There are so many rules systems out there, I'd be wary of trying to get traction from a new system.
My wild stupid, plain wrong, conspiracy theory is WS is playing the heel card so the new owner could play white knight with the fans, and thus secure better terms.
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Post by alkazar on Apr 5, 2023 13:57:55 GMT -5
There are so many rules systems out there, I'd be wary of trying to get traction from a new system. My wild stupid, plain wrong, conspiracy theory is WS is playing the heel card so the new owner could play white knight with the fans, and thus secure better terms. Also a good theory. Actually you might be right. They did just suffer a tragic loss of valuable T&T merchandise. I can believe they are wanting to cut their losses and unload it onto someone else. Hopefully not a competitor who'll kill it, I'd hate to see T&T go the way of SPI Dragon Quest.
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Post by rashathetimid on Apr 6, 2023 8:08:03 GMT -5
Bad timing for me who just start a campaign with T&T ruleset. What does that means? No more T&t related products? What about the retro clone (Swords & Sorcery, Solo Tactics Adventure Role-Playing, Echoes of the Labyrinth, Delvers of the Underchasm)? A lot of you are talking about switching to Monsters & Monsters. If I understand it's an official clone by Ken St Andre himself?
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viva
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 108
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Post by viva on Apr 6, 2023 9:55:35 GMT -5
Bad timing for me who just start a campaign with T&T ruleset. What does that means? No more T&t related products? What about the retro clone (Swords & Sorcery, Solo Tactics Adventure Role-Playing, Echoes of the Labyrinth, Delvers of the Underchasm)? A lot of you are talking about switching to Monsters & Monsters. If I understand it's an official clone by Ken St Andre himself? HOPEFULLY the new owners (Webbed Sphere) surprises everyone with some kind of good news in the summer about their actual plans but, for right at this moment, they are not letting 3rd parties release T&T product and are having older works pulled from DriveThru. Monsters!Monsters! was released way back in the 70's, too, using basically same rules but flipped the perspective (focused on monsters as the playable characters). With the sale of T&T Ken St Andre and Steve Crompton have shifted their focus to Monsters! Monsters! (which rights KSA retained) and have been very encouraging of third party development, same as T&T was until recently, which is why folks here are talking about converting existing T&T products to Monsters! Monsters! It appears relatively simple to convert other than the emotional pain of not being able to call it T&T! You don't have to flip the perspectives or anything to call it Monsters! Monsters! though folks that really embrace the Monsters!Monsters! concept (moreso than just the rules) have been and will be building their campaigns and worlds with that in mind.
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darrght
4th Level Troll
Wow, I'm a 4th Level Troll!
Posts: 440
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Post by darrght on Apr 6, 2023 11:14:16 GMT -5
Well My Friends, When I had contact with WS after DriveThru had taken TMG's T&T products down, I encouraged Ed Bryan (at WS) in an email to employ my colleagues and in particular Simon Tranter for their future projects. His response suggested that WS were going to be producing their own material Of course, I also asked if we could sign a new agreement to produce 3rd party T&T material and a reply about this I have not had .....
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 520
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Post by mosker on Apr 6, 2023 11:43:44 GMT -5
Well My Friends, When I had contact with WS after DriveThru had taken TMG's T&T products down, I encouraged Ed Bryan (at WS) in an email to employ my colleagues and in particular Simon Tranter for their future projects. His response suggested that WS were going to be producing their own material Of course, I also asked if we could sign a new agreement to produce 3rd party T&T material and a reply about this I have not had ..... Insert question as to who is going to produce their own material. Insert snarky AI or exploited labor answer. Again, from who? There are a lot of creators in the RPG space, but unless WS has got a pool of translators and deals with some ready made T&T material in hubs such as Japan, France...I can't see how the finances and intangibles (I can't see any indie contractor working for peanuts and a contract no doubt more restrictive than ORC, Mork Borg's, the Free Leagues, the OGL) would work for anyone with sufficient immersion in the product and the whole thing be above board. (And I never got any responses from Webbed Sphere. I imagine they owe me at least $.14 assuming somebody must have bought Amulet even by mistake.)
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Post by rashathetimid on Apr 6, 2023 12:13:35 GMT -5
HOPEFULLY the new owners (Webbed Sphere) surprises everyone with some kind of good news in the summer about their actual plans but, for right at this moment, they are not letting 3rd parties release T&T product and are having older works pulled from DriveThru. Monsters!Monsters! was released way back in the 70's, too, using basically same rules but flipped the perspective (focused on monsters as the playable characters) (...) Thanks for these informations ^_^ So if the odds are bad I'll switch to Monsters!Monsters!
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Post by alkazar on Apr 7, 2023 1:40:12 GMT -5
Bad timing for me who just start a campaign with T&T ruleset. What does that means? No more T&t related products? What about the retro clone (Swords & Sorcery, Solo Tactics Adventure Role-Playing, Echoes of the Labyrinth, Delvers of the Underchasm)? A lot of you are talking about switching to Monsters & Monsters. If I understand it's an official clone by Ken St Andre himself? Nothing to worry about. T&T has it's occasional hiccups but it always pulls through. There once was a time when support was thin and we didn't get a new edition for a couple of decades but Flying Buffalo always kept it in print and gave lots of love to the fans which fostered a large and loyal following of people who still actively supports it to today. However, T&T's new owners don't like the fans supporting the game and are targeting any fan made materials on drive thru. We're just discussing options and maybe venting a little. There will always be T&T related projects and support materials especially from the fans (even if it means they have to drop the T&T name from the cover of their books or adopt the name of a variant.) Monsters! Monsters! is not a clone, it was developed in the 1970's as a kind of expansion where the players could play monsters instead of adventurers (a unique idea at the time.) The Tunnels & Trolls game system can be called an early universal game engine because it's simplicity means it can easily handle different genres. There are several variants that use the original game engine as a base. The most popular of these is Tunnels & Trolls, Monsters! Monsters!, Mercenaries Spies & Private Eyes and a few others (I also recall a couple of video games, a scifi space rpg and a couple of horror titles such as The Lovecraft Variant.) While many have alternate rules and mostly minor changes to the engine, they are all fairly compatible with one another since they are using the same game as a source. It helps if you don't think of Monsters! Monsters! and it's products as a separate RPG, but as a fork. A fork that is also an excellent source of alternate support material. If you haven't checked out The Monsterary Of Zimrala! then you are truly missing out. Also, having a copy M!M! as part of your T&T arsenal couldn't hurt.
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Post by rashathetimid on Apr 7, 2023 4:15:58 GMT -5
Nothing to worry about. (...) It helps if you don't think of Monsters! Monsters! and it's products as a separate RPG, but as a fork. A fork that is also an excellent source of alternate support material. If you haven't checked out The Monsterary Of Zimrala! then you are truly missing out. Also, having a copy M!M! as part of your T&T arsenal couldn't hurt. Thanks! Look like lovecraftian monsters for me
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Apr 11, 2023 2:06:42 GMT -5
Hmmm. Thanks for the writeup. Well I suppose I'll take it down then. I suppose all the above still applies if it was EXPLICITLY free as opposed to PWYW? (I think there's a toggle for that). I would be amazed if I get sued over this tiny thing that I've probably made enough to buy three pints of bitter with but I don't want to get litigation-nuked from over the pond. If anyone would like a copy of this material please DM me and they can see a free copy of this fan made, eyes-only adventure for The World's Most Popular Troll Based Adventure Simulation Experience which I will be sharing as a friend looking for feedback. EDIT: I've removed it from public availability.
Making it free doesn't matter. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. Trademark Infringement is trademark infringement. The allowed range of punishment is the same whether free or charged. And that's before considering the $100 per hour plus of good attorneys. In re forums: they legally have little firm ground. The basic principle is that you can't use the trademarks, and can't use the literal text. In practice, most companies haven't sued forums... but Palladium has, and they won most of them. GW has, and apparently decided recently that the backlash wasn't worth it. But then, Spots the Space Marine also wound up with much egg on GW's lawyers. BTW, most of the Palladium cases were in the early 90's, against local BBSs. Palladium's fan policy used to be on their forums: flat no permissions to use any of their trademarks nor copyrights, including the lists of OCC skills... your character is not, according to Siembieda's lawyers, "transformative use"... except in Palladium's own forums. In the early 00's, they specifically went after a few sites hosting PBP... Basically, Siembieda shows just how far one can push as a content owner... scarily far. The T&T fanbase is very lucky - Steve, Bear, Liz, Rick, and Ken all are/were in favor of fan support of other fans. And, while the name has changed, the fan-friendliness of the surviving FB talent is now with M!M!.... I find myself wondering when Webbed Sphere is going to actually do something with the T&T IP...
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Post by rashathetimid on Apr 11, 2023 5:25:55 GMT -5
Making it free doesn't matter. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. Trademark Infringement is trademark infringement. The allowed range of punishment is the same whether free or charged. And that's before considering the $100 per hour plus of good attorneys. What about Peryton Publishing TROTT mark ? Peryton is publishing T&T products under the TROTT label they have created to avoid copyright infringement: "TROTT stands for Technically Referencing Older . . . uh . . . we can't say, but it rhymes with "Grunnels & Groles." It's a mark created by Peryton Publishing to indicate that a product is usable with or written for the games of Ken St. Andre, like Monsters! Monsters!" TROTT pageIs it legit?
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