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Post by nialldubh on Apr 11, 2023 5:49:05 GMT -5
Are they not now saying M!M!?
TROTT stands for Technically Referencing Older . . . uh . . . we can't say, but it rhymes with "Grunnels & Groles." It's a mark created by Peryton Publishing to indicate that a product is usable with or written for the games of Ken St. Andre, like Monsters! Monsters!
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 414
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Post by sscrompton on Apr 15, 2023 20:30:55 GMT -5
Are they not now saying M!M!? TROTT stands for Technically Referencing Older . . . uh . . . we can't say, but it rhymes with "Grunnels & Groles." It's a mark created by Peryton Publishing to indicate that a product is usable with or written for the games of Ken St. Andre, like Monsters! Monsters!We offered them the opportunity to join the M!M! Network, but they turned us down. So they are on their own. We cannot provide them any legal cover and technically they are sort of infringing our system as well as T&T's. Not sure why they choose this path, but we are not going to hassle them about it. Not sure what WebbedShpere/Buffalo will do though. I do wonder what they will do with all their products that refer to Khazan, Trollworld, etc. Ultimately we wish them well... just sad they didn't want to join the rest of us. Steve
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 16, 2023 4:32:07 GMT -5
Hmm, Like M!M!, but no actually.... My first thought is Zimrala goes in a total different direction from T&T and Trollworld and they just want to hold on to what they know.... logically, they should go with M!M! then generate their own world. Similar to Trollworld but with the obvious name changes... Maybe much like Khaghbboommm did, but not with so obviously known locations. Edit: Well Khaghtch'an is another continent on Trollworld, but they could do what Sarah Newton is doing and extract and make their own world?!
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Post by Peryton on Apr 16, 2023 21:36:14 GMT -5
First off, a little clarification about the messenger. I'm not a partner of Peryton Publishing anymore, but I still help out. Consider me an employee, I guess. Anything I say about the company is just what I think they'd want me to say. Tom is the final word on Peryton Publishing. If I say "we" in this post, I mean, "Peryton Publishing, as far as I know." In case you wondered, I dropped out because being responsible for game publishing was unnecessary stress that kept me from writing fiction.
Monsters! Monsters!: We contacted Ken St. Andre after Webbed Sphere started flexing and he gave us his blessing to publish stuff for this game. Tom said he's grateful for Steve's offer (he doesn't have an account here or I'm sure he'd be speaking for himself), but it's our understanding that Ken's permission was enough without using the logo he sent.
"Sort of Infringing Our System": I suppose if you didn't know we had permission to use the trademark, I can understand why you'd think this. Making a game product compatible with another game is not infringement of any sort, unless significant blocks of text are copied from the original game. Using a trademark solely to describe compatibility has gone both ways in court, but, again, we were given permission. "Grunnels and Groles," in any case, was a joke. For the record, we are only putting our own marks or "Monsters! Monsters!" on our products now.
We've scrubbed "Tunnels and Trolls" from our online descriptions and replaced it with "Monsters! Monsters!". We're working on clearing out any other references to T&T. I think we've done all or most of the covers already, but it's a long, thankless slog. Webbed Sphere was made aware that this would be an ongoing process and expressed no objections.
Someone asked about using the TROTT mark. We created that so we'd have a mark we can leave on no matter which holding company buys what. We also use it for our own Red Bat rules. If you want to use it, you'd have to talk to Tom. He might be open to it.
Okay?
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 17, 2023 3:20:19 GMT -5
Converting Trollworld to Personal World:Well, for the record, though it only matters slightly... earthjournalism.net/stories/goas-last-living-khazansThink it some kind of paddy field of some sorts, so it not a copyright word. So, Khazan in not copyrighted anymore than orc is (ancient Pictish tribe of the Pig). Khosht (maybe copyrighted) but replacing it with Khost: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khost_ProvinceKasar = Kazar: A submission from Texas, U.S. says the name Kazar means "Beloved Jewel" and is of Arabic origin. And change a world to suit self?
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Apr 17, 2023 16:26:53 GMT -5
Making it free doesn't matter. Copyright infringement is copyright infringement. Trademark Infringement is trademark infringement. The allowed range of punishment is the same whether free or charged. And that's before considering the $100 per hour plus of good attorneys. What about Peryton Publishing TROTT mark ? Peryton is publishing T&T products under the TROTT label they have created to avoid copyright infringement: "TROTT stands for Technically Referencing Older . . . uh . . . we can't say, but it rhymes with "Grunnels & Groles." It's a mark created by Peryton Publishing to indicate that a product is usable with or written for the games of Ken St. Andre, like Monsters! Monsters!" TROTT pageIs it legit? As game rules under US law are not technically protected... and he avoids using the FB owned and Ken-owned Trademarks... legal, most likely. Ethical? by some standards, but not mine.
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 414
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Post by sscrompton on Apr 18, 2023 20:48:57 GMT -5
Personally I think its a sad that Ken gave them permission to use his game and names and for 20 years they didn't pay him a penny. And when Ken finally asks for a small royalty and legal agreement they say "NO" and create a questionable workaround.
Not much of a thank you to the creator of T&T and M!M! concidering a large chunk of their business is based on his work. Ah well...
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trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 377
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Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 19, 2023 2:44:37 GMT -5
Personally I think its a sad that Ken gave them permission to use his game and names and for 20 years they didn't pay him a penny. And when Ken finally asks for a small royalty and legal agreement they say "NO" and create a questionable workaround. Not much of a thank you to the creator of T&T and M!M! concidering a large chunk of their business is based on his work. Ah well... It is not uncommon to find people (insert invective if you want) who lives of the creativity of others. I hope that t&t will not be killed be stupidity and greed, it deserves better, and Ken should be duely paid, and get recognition!
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Post by ProfGremlin on Apr 19, 2023 5:58:58 GMT -5
Folks, a caution here. We're steering into territory that, should we continue, will lead to some rather negative posting. I'm not, for even a moment, saying anyone's thoughts/feelings on the topic are invalid. I am saying there are specific individuals and venues better suited to this particular conversation.
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trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 377
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Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 19, 2023 6:49:35 GMT -5
Folks, a caution here. We're steering into territory that, should we continue, will lead to some rather negative posting. I'm not, for even a moment, saying anyone's thoughts/feelings on the topic are invalid. I am saying there are specific individuals and venues better suited to this particular conversation. Yes lets keep it polite, and hope that it will work out for the best.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Apr 23, 2023 20:24:53 GMT -5
Personally I think its a sad that Ken gave them permission to use his game and names and for 20 years they didn't pay him a penny. And when Ken finally asks for a small royalty and legal agreement they say "NO" and create a questionable workaround. Not much of a thank you to the creator of T&T and M!M! concidering a large chunk of their business is based on his work. Ah well... precisely why I said "unethical." But ethical standards are not congruent with legal ones. And TSR v Mayfair notes that indications of compatibility via a text-only mark, are legit. It's that they used the graphical mark that got Mayfair in trouble. Man... 45 years later, and the same issues...
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 530
Member is Online
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Post by mosker on May 25, 2023 7:48:18 GMT -5
Pulling this back to the original question:
1. If it's in your purchased library, you still have it. 2. It will show up on lists of "works by this author/publisher" even if you can't buy it. 3. What about bundles? There are bundles containing (mostly) purged works. Anyone buying a bundle and see what's there?
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