mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 530
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Post by mosker on Apr 15, 2023 12:44:32 GMT -5
Article first, then source, then minimal (really) comments afterwards: (NB: I can DM you higher quality scans/PDFS if reading this is an issue. Click on the images to read. Unsure how thumbnail settings work so I'm letting it default here)  This is from "That Company's" H.H. in 2007. I don't have the article he was referring to: a few years after rejoining the community and game, I was gifted a few assorted products from one of our truly wonderful people (not because of the gift, just in general) who wanted nothing from "That Company" on their shelves any more. I find analogues, differences to the current situation of both IPs (T&T and M!M!) Random searching through the bridge led to this the following trollbridge.proboards.com/thread/581/disgruntled-handled-poorly and I'm sure there are other similar conversations buried there. More to say. But not formed or informed or particularly relevant to the immediate post (and I promised minimal comments.) |
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578 
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Post by apn on Apr 15, 2023 16:42:49 GMT -5
Interesting insight, thanks for the read (can make it out fine). Even being an RPG designer who saw success getting into retail (the Corgi books) rather than FLGS/Mail order it seems there wasn't even enough money from the T&T brand to do it full time.
I guess things changed with the advent of Kickstarter and the successful DT&T campaign but those tend to be one offs and art swallows most of the raised funds I'd have thought.
I guess in the industry there are like, 20-30 companies who can afford to pay people full time and the rest do it for love/freelance/pocket money/nowt.
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Post by mgtremaine on Apr 25, 2023 7:23:00 GMT -5
Had not seen that article before thanks for posting it. 20K sold in 2007 interesting, surprising, and little sad.
-Mike
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 25, 2023 10:06:24 GMT -5
This may seem void of real thought but personally I have followed T&T for well over 40 years now and cannot image a gamer who has never heard of it or has not at least tried it once. Most of the solos provided quick rules with it (as I in Scotland, its the Corgi books for me), so imagine quite a few thousand more will have just used these books for a quick game. Edit: I think that was 20,000 copies over 30 years, Mike!  |
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Post by mgtremaine on Apr 25, 2023 10:54:39 GMT -5
This may seem void of real thought but personally I have followed T&T for well over 40 years now and cannot image a gamer who has never heard of it or has not at least tried it once. Most of the solos provided quick rules with it (as I in Scotland, its the Corgi books for me), so imagine quite a few thousand more will have just used these books for a quick game. Edit: I think that was 20,000 copies over 30 years, Mike! Yes .. that's how I read it but I expressed it badly... 20K over 30years 1977 -> 2007. Which a smaller number then I expected. I think with the PDF's out there and the DT&T that number went up quiet a bit. -Mike |
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 530
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Post by mosker on Apr 25, 2023 11:53:52 GMT -5
"Who knows how many copies have been sold in French or German or Japanese"
I think a (relatively)surprisingly(?) large number. T&T had a good start in Japan (I heard one theory that the difficulty of getting polyhedral dice made the d6 system extra attractive.)
FWIW: It may have been entirely due to the pairing with Arena, and the per unit royalty was much much smaller, but the one Salkti check that did not make think Rick should have just saved the banking fees and stamps (slight exaggeration) was from non-US versions, heavily Japanese, some Italian etc.
FWIW2(Commentary held from original post). In fact, in terms of product quality (inc. printing) and exposure, the one absence that really hurts in the WS/M!M! transition is Patrice Gelle. Where is our French Bison? Remember, he is the first name in DT&T's dedication...
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 25, 2023 14:33:50 GMT -5
This may seem void of real thought but personally I have followed T&T for well over 40 years now and cannot image a gamer who has never heard of it or has not at least tried it once. Most of the solos provided quick rules with it (as I in Scotland, its the Corgi books for me), so imagine quite a few thousand more will have just used these books for a quick game. Edit: I think that was 20,000 copies over 30 years, Mike! Yes .. that's how I read it but I expressed it badly... 20K over 30years 1977 -> 2007. Which a smaller number then I expected. I think with the PDF's out there and the DT&T that number went up quiet a bit. -Mike I agree, I done the math in my head and got 1 million people playing T&T at this present moment (though some of them are Martians)! |
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Post by houndle on Apr 26, 2023 2:06:47 GMT -5
I done the math in my head and got 1 million people playing T&T at this present moment I admire the optimism. I wonder how many of those sales were to the same person? Thinking my collection includes various different versions, and frankly I'd buy all the pdfs again if I could source physical copies in the UK. |
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 26, 2023 4:29:35 GMT -5
I done the math in my head and got 1 million people playing T&T at this present moment I admire the optimism. I wonder how many of those sales were to the same person? Thinking my collection includes various different versions, and frankly I'd buy all the pdfs again if I could source physical copies in the UK. Yeah, I got 1E (twice PDFs), 4E (Twice PDFs), 5e (my original from 40 back), 5.5 (box set and PDF), 7.0 tin box set, 7.5 PDF and DT&T PDF. So, after calculations, I at 200,000 folk playing T&T. |
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 411
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Post by sscrompton on May 8, 2023 1:21:52 GMT -5
I worked for Buffalo for many many years and I suspect that it might be possible that 200,000 people have (or had) a copy of the T&T rules of one sort or another worldwide. How many are ACTIVE players is another question entirely. Its' very popular in Japan and when the new version came out over there in 2016, they sold out the entire print run in two weeks! Last year the German version of T&T was republished as part pf a German Kickstarter. Of course in the US we had the successful dT&T Kickstarter in 2013 which generated over $126,000 and really did bring the game back to life. After that were Kickstarters for MSPE, Vaults of K'Horror and ElvenLords. I think each of those did over $30,000 (Vaults was around $20,000 I think). There were the years from 1992 to 2005 when very little was published officially and even up to 2011 not a lot came out, so the player count declined substancially during that period.
Then Ken and I did the Monsters Monsters reboot in 2020 which did $37,000 and the Monsterary of Zimrala KS which did $31,833. T&T and M!M! have always been a niche market, but I think the key to keeping it alive is to come out with good quality adventures and to try to support the fans and the line in general. Ken and I are doing what we can, but we do not have a team of advertising people or employees to help us out - all we really have are all of you out there who love and believe in the games. You are the ones that can show new players, review new books, and generally support our games. Without you all we are nothing! So thank you for all you do and we urge you to keep on keeping on! Keep finding ways to spread the word and find new players - we greatly appreciate it!
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Post by nialldubh on May 8, 2023 5:35:09 GMT -5
T&T is a game I returned to many times over the last four decades and I think most people will also that have the game. They put it on the shelf, then come back to it a year later because it has a certain addiction. Mostly because it aim at fun and not taking the game too seriously... The rules are not perfect and I not a big fan of silly named spells, Though TTYF is perfect... But, it a great game for solos and that is its main attraction (for me) and it must be noted (as most I think found it embarrassing to play alone, once upon a time) that many RPG game companies are now focusing on solo-play games with earnest these days. And this is because what T&T started the idea many decades back in yonder times... I think folks would/will returned to T&T, etc., due to a loyalty to T&T for being the first to start the solo-game-project... It is an amazing and great tool for game-play... Edit: Oh, yeah, 200,000, so, my crystal ball is not broken? |
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 530
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Post by mosker on May 8, 2023 8:28:13 GMT -5
I worked for Buffalo for many many years and I suspect that it might be possible that 200,000 people have (or had) a copy of the T&T rules of one sort or another worldwide. How many are ACTIVE players is another question entirely. Its' very popular in Japan and when the new version came out over there in 2016, they sold out the entire print run in two weeks! Last year the German version of T&T was republished as part pf a German Kickstarter. Of course in the US we had the successful dT&T Kickstarter in 2013 which generated over $126,000 and really did bring the game back to life. After that were Kickstarters for MSPE, Vaults of K'Horror and ElvenLords. I think each of those did over $30,000 (Vaults was around $20,000 I think). There were the years from 1992 to 2005 when very little was published officially and even up to 2011 not a lot came out, so the player count declined substancially during that period. Then Ken and I did the Monsters Monsters reboot in 2020 which did $37,000 and the Monsterary of Zimrala KS which did $31,833. T&T and M!M! have always been a niche market, but I think the key to keeping it alive is to come out with good quality adventures and to try to support the fans and the line in general. Ken and I are doing what we can, but we do not have a team of advertising people or employees to help us out - all we really have are all of you out there who love and believe in the games. You are the ones that can show new players, review new books, and generally support our games. Without you all we are nothing! So thank you for all you do and we urge you to keep on keeping on! Keep finding ways to spread the word and find new players - we greatly appreciate it! Spreading word with no team: 1. Who are the German publishers? The Japanese ones? So I assume they still have rights to T&T outside of Webbed Sphere? (Are they US or English language or...?) Have polyglot friends...Are there German and Japanese editions of M!M! 1a. French. Any plans with Patrice Geille? High quality products came out of that house... 2. Will there be anything downloadable or in print for M!M! for FreeRPG Day? Getting quickstarts into the hands of newbies... 2a. Quickstarts enable convention one shots... 3. Softcover Zimrala (perhaps POD) on tap? 4. Vets such as Tavernmaster and Tom Pugh and Thessaly Chase and Stefan Jones and [those I've forgotten] combined with Sarah Newton and Tenkar should provide some really quality stuff. Now to tap into all of those brilliant indie creators focused on things like Mork Borg, and ptBA games with licenses such as OGL, ORC(ORK?), Creative Commons... 5-10+. As I think of them |
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dungeondevil
3rd Level Troll
Give me grain and I'll give you guns!
Posts: 174
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Post by dungeondevil on May 16, 2023 14:10:33 GMT -5
The rules are ingenious (that is, the rules which are stated). However, there are some key game-design features which are sadly lacking, and their omission (whether by oversight or intent) hampers the utility of the game. E.g. "spite" probabilities, a figurative "Monster Manual" for reference, various ways of building a monster from the simple (MR only) to the most complex (statting them out as if they were PCs or NPCs with full stat blocks, behavioral notes), etc. Hopefully, the new IP-holders will redress these deficiencies. As a relative noob to T&T (I only found out about it beginning the in 2000's with my entry into the cyber-world), I am surprised that I had not heard a peep about its existence in the 70s or through the 80s and 90s. I guess this is because FB only had so much capital to invest in the all-important advertisement, promotion, "elevation of the profile", etc. |
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Post by nialldubh on May 16, 2023 14:26:23 GMT -5
Yes, T&T as unique attributes, The SR is amazing, MR, quick and fast especially if your in a rush and an enjoyable weapon list and armour. The essence behind it is enjoyable, base on fun, which allow for a certain ease to play. But it just needs a bit more oomph, is that the right word? |
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dungeondevil
3rd Level Troll
Give me grain and I'll give you guns!
Posts: 174
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Post by dungeondevil on May 16, 2023 15:24:10 GMT -5
Yes, T&T as unique attributes, The SR is amazing, MR, quick and fast especially if your in a rush and an enjoyable weapon list and armour. The essence behind it is enjoyable, base on fun, which allow for a certain ease to play. But it just needs a bit more oomph, is that the right word? Oomph must become the name of a spell!  (Maybe it allows doubling the number of dice in a pool...) |
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(Maybe it allows doubling the number of dice in a pool...)