I think it would be quite possible to make an edition that keeps the best of 5/5.5 and 7.
*keep 5 as the base - use the large format, cover art and interior art we all love *augment the art with some of the excellent pieces from 7 *keep most of the actual text/wording of 5 (seems better edited and worded than 7) *rethink some of the less popular ideas from 7 like magic resistance and revise where necessary *offer some of the changes in 7th as optional rules
So basically, reissue 5th ed with some of the good ideas from 7th as options. Talents, spite damage etc. But unlike 5.5 have it all integrated rather than the options in a separate section.
*offer it in hardcover and pdf as well as softcover.
Well.... I just ordered T&T6e from "that guy" last night. The description of the book sounds an awful lot like what you just described, but I won't know for sure until it comes in.
Basically, 6e does seem to "bridge the gap" between the two games. The description says that "Arcane" is used to power spells, there's an optional skill system, attribute increases are smoothed out, etc.
Basically, it seems to be everyone's House Rules compiled into one book. I have to admit, I'm pretty excited. I doubt I'll ever switch to another version full-out (I love T&T5e for all the reasons you stated above; the writing, the art, etc.), but 6e may provide a published codifying of the elements that I want personally out of T&T.
There comes a point where you either have to move on, or just buy yourself a Klingon costume and "go with it." --Xander Harris
I wonder if the 2007 Houserules "that guy" published contain some similar material to 6th edition? It's got slightly altered rules for the Warrior (gets Lvl in Combat Adds instead of doubled AR) optional Skills(almost straight MS&PE here), a simple Virtues/Flaws system that works off of the Skill Slot system, new weapons and the Professional Type(backported Citizen). Since the 7th Edition section has articles culled right out of Hobbit Hole, it seems likely...if Fenris has both the 6th Edition and the Houserules at hand perhaps he can tell us.
MY favorite is starting to look more like 4th Edition + Houserules these days, there must be subtle drug or something in the pages...
Anyway, i'll dispense with my recent Retro tendencies (which my group is picking up, wonder if it's a virus?) in favor of what I think would really sell in the market:
The 5E Rules, with the baseline Kindred(Human, Elf, Dwarf, Hobb, Leprechaun, Fairy) Weapons, three Types (Warrior, Wizard, Rogue) spells, XP Tables etc. These will be touted as the Core(or Basic) Rules. Short Solo adventure to really make the rules stick for a new player, room allowing.
GM section, short but sweet advice on setting up Adventures (XP awards go here, as do some random Treasure Tables, Random Trap ideas 'a la the AD&D 1st ed. DMG, a detailed dissertation on the import of SRs(gotta make it crystal clear the first time the inherent flexability of the SR!!!). A short Group Adventure to give new GMs a smooth First Flight, open-ended enough to spark immediate sequels(Paging Andy Holmes, Boozer to the Front Desk please...).
Options Section-5.5 Skills next to 7E Talents, Combat Options, one(or more) Berserker Variants, the Professional Type, a few optional Monster Types (they must be at least as balanced as the Starting Kindred, which is to say not much) with Monster XP and Monster Campaign hints). Short capsules of Alternate ideas, including T&T for Modern and Sci-fi play...get new players wanting to try the T&T Engine for all sorts of stuff. It is important to remind new GMs that this section is meant as a Toolkit to customize, a Buffet to snack from-not an Advanced version to overwhelm and create Rules Lawyers(shudder).
Order Forms/Catalogs from Flying Buffalo and "that company" shrinkwrapped to the back. ;D
Artwork from the best of 5E and 7E-but you must at least include the irreverent Bjorn the Wizard examples for Spells...in fact, I think an injection of 4th Edition Attitude would do a great deal to differentiate T&T 8th from the other RPGs out there, and we WANT this game to stand out.
Get it out into the brick-and-mortar stores.
Sig Under Construction...please reduce surfing speed.
Post by lionrampant on Feb 19, 2008 15:51:02 GMT -5
My only comment on this is that a lot of what the original poster seems to want (specific types of art, roughly 8.5 x 11 page size) has nothing to do with what edition of the rules are used. You could do pretty much what was stated and just call it a re-printing of 7th edition and get away with it. I have seen other RPGs that will actually change rules between print runs and not call it a new edition, just a "2nd printing with errata" or some such.
And on another note, why does everybody hate the smaller, spiral bound book? I actually like that format, though I wouldn't mind the option of also getting a larger book if I wanted.
I for one also appreciate the Spiral-bound style...I just assumed that MY 8th ed. would be too large for it work right in that format.
I haven't found a T&T I haven't liked at least a bit, but i'm sticking to the 5E core because it's been tested and found true-I can always steal bits off of 4th and 7th to suit. And naturally Houseruling T&T is no problem!
I think the important thing for the eventual 8th Edition is in its marketing. One of the reasons I pay so much attention to the Layout format (Core vs. bolt-ons) and want some of the quirky irreverence of 4th...I want to see the 8th Edition marketed as the ANTI-D&D. You heard me-not just the Alternative but the Opposite of what the Hasbro IP is evolving the D&D brand name into.
The latest evolution of D&D will be even more rules-intensive than before, with the DM as "the guy reading the Adventure at us", Rules-lawyering that would do the Supreme Court proud and split-second, multi-interrupted and Feat-driven combat turns are the norm...
WE have Dice+Adds and SRs, with the GM making decisions off-the-cuff and the Players creating "feats" at will.
The new D&D will have , lessee, Teiflings, Aasimar, Square-eared Halflings who live in the swamp, over a half-dozen Base Classes and several books-worth of um, Prestige Classes?
WE have Dwarf, Elf, Hobb, Little Folk and the Warrior, Rogue and Wizard.
D&D will need three Core Books plus whatever half-dozen extra books you want to use to enrich the Options plus a Worldbook plus an Online Service to get everything you were promised...
WE need one book, some six-siders and a Solo Module or some friends.
This might appear to be a slam against D&D, but it isn't-WOTC is returning D&D to a Wargamer style of play, and utilizing the latest Tech to create a unique experience. It isn't for me though. T&T meanwhile has a chance to inherit the mantle of the legendary D&D Holmes Boxed Set-easy to play, ready-made to spark the imagination and...NO LIMITS. This is why I stress a simple Core Rules format separate from the rest-one should be able to sit down at any Convention table with a T&T book and have familiarity with the product...at the same time, I want to see EVERY local Game Club running completely different versions of T&T and switching games at will! The OD&D games used to be like that, but T&T never lost that flexability...
Ooh, look a Soapbox! How did THAT get there? ;D
Sig Under Construction...please reduce surfing speed.
Post by lionrampant on Feb 20, 2008 8:30:09 GMT -5
I totally agree with you, order99, on the need to keep things simple. I have been playing in a D&D 3.5 game recently (hey, we play what the GM wants to run), and I am coming to loathe all of the tactical maneuver stuff in that system. If I hear about another "5 foot step" or an "attack of opportunity" soon I will have to kill myself. Conan never worried about whether his 5-foot step would invoke an attack of opportunity or not, he just waded in and started separating heads from bodies.
And I always felt that Flying Buffalo's minimal advertising (if you could really call it that) kind of took that "anti-D&D" mindset that you are going for. Rick just doesn't seem to have the budget for really advertising the game, as from what I understand FBI is a pretty shoe-string operation. I'm surprised Fiery Dragon didn't do more advertising, though.
That's the problem Lionrampant-we can imagine the perfect T&T Edition all we want, but it doesn't matter unless we can expand our Audience. T&T as an Anti-D&D won't work unless it's billed as an alternative AND it finds enough fans to...
Lionrampant, you've Inspired me. I have, as they say, a Cunning Plan-
And rather than go so far Off Topic that we chart new Costellations, i'll see you later in General. Gotta go!!!
Sig Under Construction...please reduce surfing speed.
I'm pretty much of the same mind as Fizzwizz and Order99 in respect to what I'd like to see in an 8th Ed.
What I'd really like to see, is Ken having all the time he needs to write and playtest an 8th ed. Then have 8th ed as the core product supported with a Trollworld campaign book written by Ken, and solos and GM adventures all set in Trollworld. This to be followed up by a series of 'powered by T&T' style alternate rule sets and campaign settings. Simillar to the GURPS, and Savage Worlds way of doing things.
The problems T&T face as I see it . . .
1) The game seems fractured. There's FBI selling 5.5 and their back catalogue of solos and GM adventures. Fiery Dragon selling the 30th aniversary edition tin and the 7th ed PDF and "that company" are selling 1st, 4th and 6th Ed and all sorts of lovely T&T goodies.
On the one hand this is good. There are lots of options and especially with "that company" there feels like there's a thriving community. On the other hand T&T doesn't have a unified presence or any kind of coherence. What is T&T? It kinda splits the potential fan base and is probably confusing for anyone considering getting into T&T.
So if an 8th ed ever does see the light of day, for it to be viable, support for the earlier editions needs to be slowly withdraw as everyone throws in their lot with the new edition.
2) Despite FBI printing 5.5, Despite Ken writing 7th ed and despite all the new solos and GM adventures and other great stuff from "that company" T&T still kinda has the 'feel' of an out of print game. A dead line.
Again, if an 8th ed was ever to be viable I think T&T would need regular 'offical' products being released. Lots of them and offten. In the same way that Mongoose Publishing keeps their new edition of Runequest going with a stream of releases. However, it just doesn't seem like any of the companies involved in T&T are in a position to do that.
Err, yeah, really I only meant to say I agree with fizzwizz and Order99, blathered on a bit there.
See, Support really IS a problem right now. The only support I see for 7E is in the Hobbit Hole mags, while 5E still has all the published modules and Solos, Houserules and Expansions...while I prefer the older version(tried and true, more fully designed etc), 7th needs support or it will wither and die on the vine-and then what happens to the earlier games if 7th dies?
I personally don't think that "that guy" is muddying the waters with 1st and 4th Editions-they are being offered as stand-alone products from the past with no support after all. The Gamma Trollworld RPG is supposed to be 7E compatable (mine hasn't arrived yet but it's advertised as such) and might be a step in the right direction for 7th....
Mind you, I still think a return to 5th Edition as the basic T&T Engine would be preferable for 8th (with all the Neat Stuff from 7th thrown in the Options section) because backwards compatability is important to the market...currently, I can take a Solo module for 5th and use a 4th or even 1st Edition PC with no real problems(subtract 10 from all MRs to reflect fewer Weapon Dice and i'm done!). If 8th is more compatable to the Vintage 5E stuff, then you have years of Edition Support backported in from the start.
I personally don't think that "that guy" is muddying the waters with 1st and 4th Editions-they are being offered as stand-alone products from the past with no support after all.
Yeah, I prolly should have left mention of them out of my post. They're there as collectors items rather than competition to 5th or 7th. In fact first time I found Outla Press (which was last week actually) 1st ed, 4th ed, and Monsters! Monsters! went straight on my I must have! them list.
I look forward to hearing what you have to say about Gamma Trollworld Order 99.
I like 7th edition enough that the only changes I'd like to see that come to mind are: edit the thing *well*, including reorganizing it so rules are laid out more logically, correct the errors, and put back the 'missing spells'