T&T + Angband = ?

[lionrampant]

So I have a new idea for a T&T game, intended to be something that can be whipped out and played, either solo or with a group, with no real prep time by the gamemaster. I've been fooling around with the old computer game Angband recently, after having not played it in 10 years or so, and I've been really enjoying myself. As the creator of a random dungeon generator, I started thinking that you could easily come up with a T&T campaign that was basically the same as Angband.

You would have a town, that would have a number of shops and useful NPCs that the players could avail themselves of. In this town (or right outside of it) would be a portal that led to the "dungeon dimension," or something similar. This dimension, for whatever cosmological reason is convenient, consists of an endless series of subterranean caverns filled with monsters and treasure. The players enter the portal and then adventure to their hearts' content.

The trick with Angband is that whenever you go up or down a level in the dungeon, the level is re-generated. For example, when going down to level 2, you don't return to the same level 1 you left; it is all new, but going up from level 1 always puts you back in the same town.

All you would need would be a nice set of random tables to generate the dungeon on the fly, along with appropriate encounters. My own random dungeon generator (found at www.geocities.com/lionrampant99/trolls/index.htm) could easily provide 80+% of what is needed, though the encounter tables might need tweaking.

So, what do people think of this idea?

[apeloverage]

What would the differences be between Angband and 'normal' Tunnels & Trolls?

[lionrampant]

The difference would really be in the way the dungeons were created (very randomly) and the fact that levels primarily exist as separate entities, and once you leave one it is gone forever, because once you go back up or down a level, it is created anew. That's really all that would be different, though the game would most likely not be part of the base Trollworld setting.

[apeloverage]

What would you need? This is what I thought of:

This is already done:
* creating characters, including buying equipment.
* buying spells, gaining levels, gaining new equipment.
* keeping track of XP.

This is partly done:
* combat - you'd need a standardised version of 'stunts', or to eliminate them.
* spell effects - some effects would need to be made more precise: for example you'd need a standard answer for when spells that 'usually' do something work.

These three are related:
* Talents - if they're used, you'd need a list of what you can have and precisely what it does.
* making saving rolls. Players would need to be able to look up what level of save and what attribute you use.
* interacting with monsters. Again, you'd need to have a standard system for negotiating, hiding, sneaking etc. For example what level, what Talent, if I try to sneak past a monster and fail how much does that hurt negotiating with it etc.

This isn't done (in the standard T&T rules):
* generating a dungeon, including when to generate what, so that things aren't generated until the characters would know them - for example, you don't generate whether a treasure chest is trapped until the characters cast a relevant spell, or try and open the chest.

Nothing there sounds like it couldn't be done, although the choices you make about making rules more precise aren't guaranteed to please everyone.

[apeloverage]

Looking at that list, it's difficult to see what the GM would actually do.

Also, it'd be easy to make it competitive - with each player controlling their own party for example.

[order99]

We're talking about a Quick-play, pen-and-paper version of a computer game, sort of a Souped-up Boardgame?

Sounds Doable. There's a D&D-style one out called Cardmaster(one-page Rules Rock!) and Rune the RPG is a rather Advanced version of same( lots of Randomly rolled Traps for GM inspiration, the GM gets Points as do the Players).

[dwayanu]

There's a game called Roguelike, derived from an older one called Monsters & Mazes, on the 'net. It may be worth a skim.

My own thought is that "modules" would facilitate brisker play than generating all data with rolls on tables.

You could make (or get) some geomorphic map sections to choose at random. A deck of cards should work well for monsters, treasures and traps.

Actually, I think Ken St Andre has a dungeon he builds entirely with cards. It's a cubical grid of spaces, what's in a space being determined by the draw of a single card with all necessary info written on it.

[dwayanu]

Some of what apeloverage brought up might be beyond the scope of a truly Angband-like game. For instance (IIRC), "negotiating" with dungeon denizens would be off the menu.

[apeloverage]

May 18, 2008 14:13:07 GMT -5 dwayanu said:

Some of what apeloverage brought up might be beyond the scope of a truly Angband-like game. For instance (IIRC), "negotiating" with dungeon denizens would be off the menu.

In that case you'd have to make sure that CHR did something else - hirelings? cheaper equipment?

[lionrampant]

Dwayanu, Angband is based on Moria, which I think is based on Rogue. All of these kinds of games are called "Roguelike" because they do very similar things in a similar way, though with some differences. Angband is simply the only one I've ever played.

Apeloverage, you raise some good points. What I'm doing here is basically a thought exercise to see how the styles of the two games would be merged, and whether that is even a good idea, or not. One sticking point for me is the generation of the dungeon. Angband does it on-the-fly because it is a computer game, whereas a table-top game would go SLOOOOOOOW if the game stopped for an hour whenever the group changed levels, so the GM could make all those random rolls and draw out the map. You could do up a bunch of maps ahead of time, but that is still a lot of work, and if you are doing that much work, why not create a more normal dungeon?

I do believe that Ken's dungeon with the index cards is the original Gristlegrim (played in that at Origins a few years back; '99, maybe?). That idea might work, but then it wouldn't feel like Angband, with all of its crazy, twisting passages. Hmmm. More thought is needed, but maybe this isn't a workable idea.

[dwayanu]

The Roguelike to which I referred is a paper & pencil game, meant to create an experience akin to Rogue-like computer games.

Free PDF Here

[dwayanu]

How is it more work to draw a set of geomorphs once than to draw maps many times?!

Maybe You Could Use These

Add a .pdf to the filename for convenience.

[apeloverage]

Have you heard of the game Sorcerer's Cave?

If not, it uses two decks of cards. One creates the 'map'. Some 'map' spaces have their own special encounter on them (eg a whirlpool), some have no encounters, and some require you to draw one or more cards from a smaller deck which contains monsters and treasure.

The boardgamegeek page on it is at www.boardgamegeek.com/game/1202

May 18, 2008 18:09:30 GMT -5 lionrampant said:

Apeloverage, you raise some good points. What I'm doing here is basically a thought exercise to see how the styles of the two games would be merged, and whether that is even a good idea, or not. One sticking point for me is the generation of the dungeon. Angband does it on-the-fly because it is a computer game, whereas a table-top game would go SLOOOOOOOW if the game stopped for an hour whenever the group changed levels, so the GM could make all those random rolls and draw out the map. You could do up a bunch of maps ahead of time, but that is still a lot of work, and if you are doing that much work, why not create a more normal dungeon?

I do believe that Ken's dungeon with the index cards is the original Gristlegrim (played in that at Origins a few years back; '99, maybe?). That idea might work, but then it wouldn't feel like Angband, with all of its crazy, twisting passages. Hmmm. More thought is needed, but maybe this isn't a workable idea.

[lionrampant]

dwayanu, I had never heard that there was a P&P game trying to emulate the feel of the computer games. I'll have to check it out.