Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 11, 2008 13:41:13 GMT -5
Hey Guys, I have met two new people who only know of roleplaying through online gaming, and I am in the process of trying to get them to try pen and paper. Through discussions, I think they would enjoy something similar to a Diablo/Inferno world, so I've been working on giving them something like that, using T&T (natch!). Actually, T&T works well here 'cos the original three Diablo classes match T&T's quite well (just give the Rogue a better Bow ability and you're done). Anyhoo, the world I'm creating for this game is over-run with Demons, and Magic-users are hunted down, because they are a threat to Demon rule. I'd like to keep Magic down a little bit, and I have an idea, I wanted to see what you guys thought. First, this idea uses d100, so some won't like it immediately for that reason, but here it is anyway: Any time a spell is cast, there is a percentage chance equal to 5 x Spell Level cast that any Demons within the listed maximum distance of the spell will sense the casting and be drawn to the area. Demons more than max distance of the spell, but less than twice the distance, have 1/2 chance of sensing the spell. Of course, I'm a story-gamer, so I'd likely fudge the results anyway if I thought it would make a better story/game, but that's the rule as I've thought it up. I won't really have a chance to playtest it before trying it, so I thought I'd toss it out to the board and let everyone tear it apart for me (great timesaver! ) So, whaddaya think, guys?
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Post by mahrundl on Aug 11, 2008 15:41:54 GMT -5
Fenris, Firstly, congrats on luring your players towards the Light Side! Secondly, other than the D100 aspect , the idea sounds workable. But I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'listed maximum distance of the spell'. Do you mean the range? If so, the first level spell 'Take That, You Fiend' can be sensed 2.5 times as far away as the 9th level spell 'Death Spell #9' (5th edition rules), which seems a bit odd. What about this made-up-off-of-the-top-of-my-head method instead: the sensing distance is equal to the actual STR / WIZ spent in casting the spell. Or some multiple of it, depending on how large you want the detectable range to be. This way, the more powerful that a spell is, the better it's chance of being noticed, and the more skilled the Wizard, the better the chance of 'hiding' the effect. Your thoughts?
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 11, 2008 17:30:51 GMT -5
Well, first, thanks for the reply. Second, it hasn't happened yet, and it's starting to look like it's gonna crash before it starts... personality conflicts with the one will likely cause me to lose contact with both. But, I'm still hopeful at the present time. Re: Actual mechanics, I've been turning it around in my head and, as a storyteller-gamer, the whole distance/range/detection chance is more AD&D2e than I really want for any T&T game. For one thing, that much precision means I need to know how many Demons are inside that range when the spell is cast... and for the rule to have any meaning, if those Demons notice the casting and investigate the source, then they will no longer be in the area they were orignally set... which may make other encounter areas meaningless. Essentially, what I'm trying to do is create a Wandering Monster system where the chance of a Wandering Monster (actually a Wandering Demon in this case) increases when higher level spells are used. Casters will use the level of spell they need, but if they're smart, they'll try to keep it toned down, or else risk additional troubles. From this end, I think it's best to ignore the 1/2 at double range thing... that's just pointless. Also, is the check made by every demon in the area, or is it just a percentage chance based on the chance in general? (Obviously the latter, at least to me). For myself, Mahrundl, I really want more powerful Wizards to be Demon magnets, rather than more skilled at hiding the effects. If this were a campaign world rather than a one-shot, I'd almost consider Demons being able to Sense Ambient Magic (i.e. just "smell" their power) in much the way Immortals smell each other (kinda like dogs?). A Wizard that wants to live long in this world would likely find some place that "dampens" his field, or would learn magics that would camouflage him. Is distance still an issue with these further notes? Done in this fashion, either additional Demons will arrive, or they won't. Casting an 8th level spell would give a 40% chance of an additional encounter. You could really go all D&D on it and say 2d6 x 10 in MR* Demon(s) will appear in 1d6 rounds, but I don't know if I need all of that for my own games. *Thus, if you roll a 7 there will be 1 Demon with an MR of 70, or two with MRs of 35 each, or 3 with 30/20/20 or whatever. So, who's your Daddy now?
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Aug 11, 2008 20:39:25 GMT -5
Hmmm...
So does the Wizard Type in this world get any benefits to offset the increased casting risk... or is this a simple fix to 'pulp' up the Wizards a bit with the extra Danger Factor, and thereby make Warriors a more attractive option?
Perhaps the Wizard could use his Focus to either cut ST/WIZ costs OR to decrease the risk of accidental Summonings-trading 'strenuous but safe' for 'Tap into the Dark Magics and Demons take Finesse!!'. Rogues would have no such options(no Focus after all) and would be considered even more dangerous than usual by real Wizards('You IDIOT! You'll kill us all!!').
Is the Demon Factor a constant in the world, or just in the 'Bad Places' (ie Dungeons, Haunted Forests, Gates to the Underworld, Ancient Ruins etc.) ? Naturally Wizard's Towers and Guild Chapters would likely create 'safe zones' of some type for training and research, assuming you have Guilds in this world...
Sympathy for the personality conflicts, I feel your pain. I had to take hiatus from my own group-one's in Japan for a few months, one's getting wed and i'm studying for A+ Cert, so i'll be jonesing for a Game soon myself. Oh well.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 11, 2008 21:42:17 GMT -5
Hey, Buddy! Good to see ya! Man, it seems like it's been awhile.... These two are friends, and I'm more friends with one than the other, but they are both deeply Diablo freaks... unfortunately, my knowledge of Diablo is limited, so I'm working on a unique creation that, I hope, will look fairly Diablo-ish. Actually, the Lady Death animated movie is also an inspiration, as that is something I've actually seen. While it takes place "in Hell," this world will be a world where Hell moved in and took over. If done properly, the increased danger of being a Spellcaster could make them a more attractive option, rather than less attractive. Once the Hell Doorways opened and the Demons started taking over, hunting down and destroying those that had magical power (the only way the really bad ones can even be hurt) was the first order of business. The remaining Wizards had to go into hiding in order to protect the knowledge remaining, in the hopes that someday they might be able to reclaim their world. Warriors might be good to have around to fight the monsters and beasties, but when you finally make your way to the Beezelbubs and Astaroths of this world, you're gonna need some heavy magical firepower: it's unlikely a Warrior would even be able to get near it, and even more unlikely a sword would do much more than break on the first hit. Regarding "lower cost spells to decrease the chance of being noticed," some of that is already "built in" by the level number being directly related to the chance of detection. I.e., a Spellcaster should normally want to use the lowest level version of an available spell for safety's sake... don't cast a 3rd level TTYF if a 1st level one will do the trick! Of course, if you need to cast several lower level spells, it will likely all balance out.... This does make Warriors a bit more useful, though, when I think about it... less spells and lower level ones can reduce the effectiveness of a monster, down to where the Warrior has a chance to kill it... but no more magic than is absolutely necessary! You know, I'm starting to like this world....
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Post by mahrundl on Aug 12, 2008 1:44:43 GMT -5
Essentially, what I'm trying to do is create a Wandering Monster system where the chance of a Wandering Monster (actually a Wandering Demon in this case) increases when higher level spells are used. Casters will use the level of spell they need, but if they're smart, they'll try to keep it toned down, or else risk additional troubles. So is it the power of the Wizard, the power of the spell, or some combination that attracts their attention? You sort of seem to be implying one then the other. Are the Demons attracted to the Wizard's magical aura, which could mean that they could identify a Wizard even if he wasn't casting, or do they sense the gathering of the energies that comprise the spell itself? You need an answer to these questions, I think, to clarify how you should handle it. If distance isn't a factor, then every Demon should detect every spell cast anywhere in the world. They wouldn't always respond, but they'll feel the casting. You may want Demons to potentially arrive from the other side of the planet, but I think that some sort of range limit is probably a good idea. Mind you, omitting the range limit gives you a perfect rationale for the whole situation of really nasty Demons, invasion from Hell, and killing off all of the spell casters. Wouldn't you feel the same, if the 'noise' of spell-casting made it impossible for YOU to ever get a decent night's sleep...? ;D
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 12, 2008 2:14:09 GMT -5
Have I ever mentioned that I love this place? ;D You're absolutely right, Mahrundl, a range should be determined, if only for the world to have it's own internal logic, and the distance should be rather large, otherwise a Wizard would feel relatively safe working his magic in the potty. The idea definitely is that Demons are magical creatures and can therefore "feel" the movement of magic in an area... while a person can work magic, Demons are magic by their very nature, and can sense when part of their essence is being used. Therefore, casting magic should never be "safe" for a Spellcaster, very much like what Order said earlier: Warrior: I'm so thirsty, I feel like I haven't had a drink in days. Wizard: No problem, I'll just Create Water and we can all.... Warrior: No, you fool! You'll have every demon from here to Timbuktu crawling all over this place in an hour! ...and so on. As far as "can the demons sense ambient magic" i.e. just the Wizard even when he's not casting, on that point I am still uncertain. As with spells, I would say it would depend on the power of the Wizard. Gandalf would shine like a beacon in the night, while lesser Wizards might not. A large group of them together (like a council or guild) would probably be obviously apparent... just that much energy flowing in an area would be noticeable to those attuned to such a thing. A dampening spell would be illogical, but possible in fantasy... a magical creature could sense something, but be uncertain what it is. It would be akin to using an illusion spell to make something invisible (which is not normally allowed in most fantasy games, T&T included, e.g. Mirage). Finally, I should note that I'm writing this post in my sleep, so if this makes little sense, I should not be surprised. Still, the ideas I'm getting here are so good there was no way I was going to be able to get back to sleep until I responded. Please keep the ideas coming!
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 12, 2008 5:17:32 GMT -5
A large group of them together (like a council or guild) would probably be obviously apparent... just that much energy flowing in an area would be noticeable to those attuned to such a thing. Well. So much for the Wizard's Guild approach to aquiring spells, then, huh? As far as the spell/demon thing... That's weird. I used to play a lot of the game, and I've never heard anything about that. *shrug* Oh, and if you want a lil more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_(computer_game)Also, there were some Diablo campaign/adventure supplements for AD&D2E in it's last days and D&D3E. Probably would be pretty cheap if you found them on eBay or Amazon or whatever... www.wizards.com/dnd/main.asp?x=d2/diabloii,3 They may be somewhat useful.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 12, 2008 8:51:18 GMT -5
I am BIG on creating my own worlds to play in, which is one reason why I've always been such a big T&T freak... the amount of freedom to create whatever you want exactly the way you want it, in a simple to understand format. I wouldn't see this much total creative freedom until FUDGE, much later. So, you're saying that Demons being able to sense magic or magic users is... basically an original concept??? Cool! I hereby state that I have copyrighted this idea! Is that all I gotta do? Now go write some books and make some movies and get my bazillion dollars.... Alas, not completely original! On an episode of Buffy, a Demon asks Willow, "Is that power I smell, Witch?" He can tell by being near her that she has large amounts of magical ability at her disposal, and decides against a frontal assault. Still, it's original-ish, so that's good enough for a hack like me.... ;D Thank you very much for the Diablo links, I shall mine them for as much information as I can. Everything I see goes in, gets mushed around, and is spewed back out in some form or another... a bit of material from the original source of inspiration will likely go over well. There is another old RPG called Inferno, by Death's Edge Games, that, like the Lady Death movie mentioned earlier, I am much more familiar with and serves as far greater inspiration. Is anybody else here familiar with this game? Any thoughts on what to add/take away? And thanks for the links and inspirations, Machfront!
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 12, 2008 14:39:37 GMT -5
Woops. Ok. I misread. I thought you were saying that you were trying to emulate what was present in the Diablo world and were trying to come up with a workable system for it. I see now that it was just an idea you had to go along with the whole deal. Ok.
Well, cool. I do like the idea. In fact, I like the idea of T&T Diablo. Sounds like a fun time to me. But then, I've always preferred dark and grim gaming. I'm the kind of person that looks at the Old World as presented in Warhammer and goes: "Meh. Is that all you got??"
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 12, 2008 18:52:04 GMT -5
In fact, I like the idea of T&T Diablo. Sounds like a fun time to me. But then, I've always preferred dark and grim gaming. I'm the kind of person that looks at the Old World as presented in Warhammer and goes: "Meh. Is that all you got??" Same here, Machfront. So any other ideas or suggestions you've got are very appreciated! Rogues in Diablo seem very much like T&T rogues already, except for improved archery skill. Any other suggestions or modifications? I hit the wikipedia link you sent, and there was a ton of great info there, thanks... I'm still going through it. Any other thoughts, ideas, suggestions or opinions on this "Wandering Demon" system are appreciated and welcome. Thanks! As a side note, anyone have any ideas for translating the system into a d6 system without changing the basic mechanic? I don't mind using d%, but if anyone can think of a way to use d6s and keep the balance (a 1st level spell has a 5% chance of being noticed, a 20th level spell has a 100% chance), I'd love to hear it. Thanks again!
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Post by mahrundl on Aug 13, 2008 15:15:32 GMT -5
Well, you can emulate D100 with D6s. Roll 1 die, re-rolling 6s, to get a value from 1 to 5. Roll another die, with 1-3 = do nothing and 4-6 = add 5 to the first die, treating 10 as 0. That gives you a value from 0 to 9. Repeat, multiplying the second result by 10 to get a value from 0 to 90. This gives a range from 00 to 99, or 01 to (1)00.
Another possibility would be to use a table of some sort, but that's less attractive.
If you can cope with it not being a flat 5% per level, you could do it as a SR. I'd suggest a SR of twice the spell's level by the caster to avoid being noticed, based on Luck or perhaps Charisma. That's going to get harder very quickly as the spell level increases, but it's never entirely impossible to avoid notice.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Aug 13, 2008 16:06:52 GMT -5
Mahrundl, I gotta play with your d6 to percentile system. That's pretty cool. I also thought about rolling 3d6 equal or less than spell level, three always succeeding and 18 always failing. I'm not big on doing it as a SR because I don't want there to be a connection between what the characters do and if they are noticed. That's not "unrealistic" I suppose (what if they cast the spell inside of some defensive pentacle?), but it's an effect I want to avoid in this world setting... for one thing, I don't want to have the players (who are super-newbies) spending time trying to think of ways to "defeat the system" rather than just playing and getting on with it, lol. The basic idea is, avoid large spells unless you absolutely need it. That's my goal and focus. I really wanna play with that d6 system, Mahrundl.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 14, 2008 20:03:24 GMT -5
In fact, I like the idea of T&T Diablo. Sounds like a fun time to me. But then, I've always preferred dark and grim gaming. I'm the kind of person that looks at the Old World as presented in Warhammer and goes: "Meh. Is that all you got??" Same here, Machfront. So any other ideas or suggestions you've got are very appreciated! Rogues in Diablo seem very much like T&T rogues already, except for improved archery skill. Any other suggestions or modifications? I hit the wikipedia link you sent, and there was a ton of great info there, thanks... I'm still going through it. Any other thoughts, ideas, suggestions or opinions on this "Wandering Demon" system are appreciated and welcome. Thanks! As a side note, anyone have any ideas for translating the system into a d6 system without changing the basic mechanic? I don't mind using d%, but if anyone can think of a way to use d6s and keep the balance (a 1st level spell has a 5% chance of being noticed, a 20th level spell has a 100% chance), I'd love to hear it. Thanks again! No problem. As far as rogues, I guess there's plenty ways to improve them aren't there? Triple their Dex adds, add their level to their SR, they shoot one slot easier as far as range and/or target size, or any combo. I'd give 'em at least two of those. They are the best archers in the world after all. As I eluded to before, my suggestion about the Wizard's Guild still holds. If you want Demons to come about because of magic, it'll make Wizard's Guilds and the acquisition of spells rather difficult. As far as the danger being tied to spell level, I was going to suggest a SR-type deal, but I see you don't want to go that direction. It wasn't a fully thought out rule anyhow. It was basically a thought of a SR modified by the spell level in some way. I can't think of how you could do it, but there's bound to be an easy way to use perhaps a "roll over", since level 20 spell would be more dangerous and therefore harder to roll higher than, but I think level or stats should influence it....but I dunno how. I do believe I need coffee. I'm mis-firing all over the place. Me and my half-baked ideas....
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Post by Mhegrrrim Skulltosser on Aug 16, 2008 0:06:56 GMT -5
Fenris, Order99's concept of Magic Corruption could be adapted perfectly to attacting demons. I could not find the original post, but his table could be customized easily. Allows you to pick ever stronger (or more) demons with higher level spells.
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