My thoughts on T&T

[Vin Ahrr Vin]

I didn't want to hijack the Disgruntled: T&T is being handled poorly thread, so I thought I'd start something different.

[glow=red,2,300]My (Rambling) Thoughts on T&T:[/glow]
1. What I liked about 5E T&T when I first found a copy was its simplicity and "old school" appearance. It was a fun and readable rulebook. It had simple B&W diagrams.

2. I also like the fact that the game has remained essentially unchanged for 20+ years. Sure, it has newer "editions" but they are mostly reorganization and repackaging rather than revision. (7E is, of course, the exception to this trend.)

3. I like the fact that characters are somewhat complex but monsters are simple. Makes my job as a Game Master that much easier!

4. I also liked the level of product support for 5E. Something like 20 solo adventures had been published, plus guys like Boozer were putting solos on the internet.

5. As such, I am a little troubled by 7E. Somehow I just don't like it as much as 5E. It has those glossy covers and a tin box and spiral binding and I want to like it but I just can't.

6. When I teach others how to play T&T its always with the 5E rules. If I get a chance to run a game at a con, it'll be with 5E rules (or the free fast-play rules).

7. I've never been thrilled with the way T&T is marketed. That's part of why I hang out here, because it's a place where people keep the game alive. I think that the Flying Buffalo site never seems to change. I think that multiple editions being sold at the same time is really odd.

8. I think that MSPE should stay afloat, either as its own game or as a supplement. Maybe even a "core" rules set with add-ons for Space, Steam, Espionage, Horror, Wild West, or any of a number of other settings. MSPE provides a skill system model for T&T, and maybe putting the two together gives us Advanced T&T

9. I think that at its heart, T&T is a remarkable system. It's simple enough to be generic and can be applied to any situation with little trouble. It's expandable enough to be as complex as you like it.

Anyway, just some musings from an old crusty guy.

[skathros]

Oct 5, 2008 7:36:11 GMT -5 Vin Ahrr Vin said:

2. I also like the fact that the game has remained essentially unchanged for 20+ years. Sure, it has newer "editions" but they are mostly reorganization and repackaging rather than revision. (7E is, of course, the exception to this trend.)

I'll have to respectfully disagree here Leveling might have changed (but it works), and Talents might have been included (and they work...really well, IMNSHO), but it still looks like T&T to me. Kinda like AD&D 2E in relation to 1E, with less dramatic changes. Rule-wise, I'm comfortable with the minor changes implemented in 7E. As to the physical game, well, I could do without the tiny size, the tin, and my greatest pet peeve...the spiral binding! Give me 7E packaged just like 5E was, with box and book sized for human hands and eyes, along with a properly bound book, and i'm one happy T&Ter.

5. As such, I am a little troubled by 7E. Somehow I just don't like it as much as 5E. It has those glossy covers and a tin box and spiral binding and I want to like it but I just can't.

Is it the additional rules/rules changes that turn you off, or the whole presentation?

7. I've never been thrilled with the way T&T is marketed. That's part of why I hang out here, because it's a place where people keep the game alive. I think that the Flying Buffalo site never seems to change. I think that multiple editions being sold at the same time is really odd.

8. I think that MSPE should stay afloat, either as its own game or as a supplement. Maybe even a "core" rules set with add-ons for Space, Steam, Espionage, Horror, Wild West, or any of a number of other settings. MSPE provides a skill system model for T&T, and maybe putting the two together gives us Advanced T&T

The multiple edition thing bothers me, I think everyone knows that. It's not like the old D&D days where both Basic & Advance were in print at the same time, because they were so only because both sold well. Once Basic no longer sold, it was dropped. Also, at the hight of Basic and Advance, both were being supported with material from he folks at TSR. T&T on the other hand really doesn't have the numbers to support 3 editions. When rescources are then spread amoung all three, it starts looking pretty thinly supported.

Ideally, Ken & Co should simply pick an edition (I prefer 7E, most prefer 5E, either/or, it doesn't matter) and go full force with that edition. Unfortunatly, If you go with 7E, those that prefer 5E will be upset and vise-versa. The community simply needs to bite the bullet and go with it. This is what I initially thought 7E was supposed to be/do.

Instead of going the multiple edition route, give up MSPE and MM!.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I myself am also a proponent of 5th edition plus house rules ( Hey remember the Troll-God always says it's our game ;D )

As far as adaptability I know I have used T&T to run
1# Bronze Age adventures
2# Warhammer World ( classic none of this updated stuff )
3# 30 years war swashbuckling ( I have an unhealthy admiration for Cardinal Richelieu )
4# Runequest Glorantha ( I fell in love with the Trolls )
5# Vikings versus Aztecs for Conquest of the new world ( Never Got to finish that )
6# Post-Apocalypse fantasy with robots, mutants, spell-casters and some interesting technology.
7# Also lots of Low-fantasy goodness ( Yea! Robert E. Howard and Fritz Leiber! )

I ran a horror in the old west game using MSPE years before Deadlands. Voodoo, Chinese demons, Wendigo and an Egyptian Mummies army of the dead. I miss that game, not heavy on brain work but everyone had a roaring good time!

I think the most amazing thing about T&T is that it invites you to take part in the game creation process. It provides all the tools you need to make your own game or simply to enjoy the fantasy game T&T is.

Beautiful in its simplicity, I have never run across anyone who did not almost instantly grasp the basics. I feel that when a system is so intuitive that it simply blends into the background thats when great games are most likely to happen.

I just wish T&T got more recognition. Its a great game thats easy to learn and accessible to just about everyone and if you like an idea it practically writes itself in game terms.

Of the many games I have owned and played over the years T&T is the one I have the most affection for and the one I most wish I could help.

[Mhegrrrim Skulltosser]

Oct 5, 2008 7:36:11 GMT -5 Vin Ahrr Vin said:

[glow=red,2,300]My (Rambling) Thoughts on T&T:[/glow]
1. What I liked about 5E T&T when I first found a copy was its simplicity and "old school" appearance. It was a fun and readable rulebook. It had simple B&W diagrams.

Hear HEAR! This has always been the gold standard behind behind T&T

Oct 5, 2008 7:36:11 GMT -5 Vin Ahrr Vin said:

8. I think that MSPE should stay afloat, either as its own game or as a supplement. Maybe even a "core" rules set with add-ons for Space, Steam, Espionage, Horror, Wild West, or any of a number of other settings. MSPE provides a skill system model for T&T, and maybe putting the two together gives us Advanced T&T

I played with the MSPE skill system for awhile in T&T. I too thought it would be great. What discouraged me from using MSPE skills was the level /AP aspect of a skill. After the simplicity of T&T I did not want to track each skill separately.

I do think Talents are the best addition to T&T (the corrected 7.5 version as a flat bonus and not a mini attribute). Talents formalized a rule Jim "Bear" Peters used successfully for years. Talents fill in as broad skills to give a character more definition.

Vin, you always have good points.

[captainrufus]

Im just getting into T&T but I see how influential it was even if few people today know of it. It's practically the same kind of combat system most console RPGs seem to use, spellpoints, attribute focused gameplay, rules light/narrative style, ect.

Its funny I seem to be the only person who likes the spiral binding. Love it in fact. I just wish the coils were locked at the ends like a notebook's. Can leave the book flat with a page open. I wish more books were that way, especially my minis gaming books.

[unclecranky]

My problem with the spiral binding stretches back to the old, old days, when Flying Buffalo did all their published stuff that way, but in a large-book format, like with the 5th ed. rules. The spiral then would warp if you left it in the sun, and break if you didn't. You had to treat the thing like it was glass, and even then the spiral would cut the pages, eventually. The new style has a lot going for it, like portability and storability. Plus, as I mentioned on another thread, I like the little tin box (Sorry, Skathros).

[machfront]

Not much that I can add to the excellent points already stated.

My own love of T&T is in the simplicity.
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."-Leonardo Da Vinci

Combat, missle combat, magic and one simple roll for everything else! Yay!

I'm not as bothered by the 7th edition books' size as much as the spiral. I always feel like I'm gonna rip the pages right out of the book. I do wish the book was a teeny bit bigger, though. Heck, I love the size of the Corgi rules.

As far as MSPE goes. It is indeed a pity that it's been left alone to wither. It's a shame that such a simple, nice and very capable system has no love from the creators and publisher.

[unclecranky]

Maybe we should try writing to Rick Loomis and offering to write solos and GM adventures for MSPE ourselves. As far as I know, this is the first time anyone's talked the game up in twenty years.

[skathros]

Oct 6, 2008 12:03:31 GMT -5 unclecranky said:

As far as I know, this is the first time anyone's talked the game up in twenty years.

In all fairness, this is the first time we've had a coherent board to voice our likes...and dislikes

[Vin Ahrr Vin]

Oct 5, 2008 9:16:29 GMT -5 skathros said:

Oct 5, 2008 7:36:11 GMT -5 Vin Ahrr Vin said:

2. I also like the fact that the game has remained essentially unchanged for 20+ years. Sure, it has newer "editions" but they are mostly reorganization and repackaging rather than revision. (7E is, of course, the exception to this trend.)

I'll have to respectfully disagree here Leveling might have changed (but it works), and Talents might have been included (and they work...really well, IMNSHO), but it still looks like T&T to me. Kinda like AD&D 2E in relation to 1E, with less dramatic changes. Rule-wise, I'm comfortable with the minor changes implemented in 7E. As to the physical game, well, I could do without the tiny size, the tin, and my greatest pet peeve...the spiral binding! Give me 7E packaged just like 5E was, with box and book sized for human hands and eyes, along with a properly bound book, and i'm one happy T&Ter.

Skathros, I must respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement.

Actually, I think for me it's a combination of the factors you mentioned. I'm not a big "change" guy and while some of those different rules might be better, they somehow just don't fit my concept of what T&T ought to be. (This may be my own fault; once I get "into" a game system I like to tinker with it but don't like others telling me how to tinker with it.)

I also have some issues with the little tin box -- it's cute but not so useable. I also like the book size for 5E amd maybe would like 7E better in a similar book format.

Your analogy of AD&D is an interesting one, but as an OD&D/AD&D guy I'm not as big a fan of 2E either.

Anyway, I respect your opinions on this and many other boards and as such I'll dust off the tin box again and look at it. Perhaps my memory isn't so good on this issme.

[captainrufus]

7.5 ditched the tin for a box. While I kinda like the tins FDP uses, you really need to put a rubber band around it to prevent it from popping open at inopportune moments. 7.5 has a nice box like Steve Jackson's Ogre games used to. Though they can get kinda packed and need a rubber band too, its not as bad.

If you really want inconvenient but loveable, the OOOLD plastic boxes Jackson used to use. I have a couple games in that format. Im surprised they fit ANYTHING in those things. With some foam they would make nice Ipod holders though.

[mahrundl]

Oct 6, 2008 12:51:52 GMT -5 skathros said:

In all fairness, this is the first time we've had a coherent board to voice our likes...and dislikes

And isn't it a wonderful thing to have!

[gamepunk26]

While my current gaming group is heavily into 4th ed D&D, I am still pursuing T&T as the core of my own home-made fantasy world. I still run T&T at conventions, including an upcoming RPGA D&D con. I am a proud spokesman for 6th edition.

As for the spiral binding, I get all my books ripped and bound at Kinkos. So much easier to use.

[unclecranky]

I wish I knew more places I could post to get more people to try T&T. Anyone got ideas?

[order99]

Last time I checked, a Starter copy of T&T was still free on RPGnet-download a copy and let your friends know! Free copies by the publisher are a great way to get new gamers.