Thoughts on Karma/Fate/Hero Points

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I have been thinking of adding Karma/Fate/Hero Points to my house rules.

Every character would get Karma points at generation. The Karma points can then be spent as get out of death free cards and Karma points are non-renewable unless players or characters do something exceptional.

I am kind of hopeful that it will lead to a more "Daring" style of play.

I was wondering if anyone else has tried this and how it turned out?

I first came across the whole concept waaay back in "Top Secret" and I have seen it used in a few systems since like "Warhammer".

It always seemed to me like something very T&T'ish in nature.

I was also thinking about using Karma points to balance the races. Say baseline for humans and Hobbits, slightly more for fairies and less for dwarves , elves and half-orcs.

Just thought I'd throw it out there and see what Y'all think. ;D

[machfront]

I suppose some would argue that T&T is, by default, "supposed" to be pretty darn dangerous and characters will and perhaps should frequently die. I run a grim game, but I don't gleefully kill off characters left and right.
I've never utilized such a thing myself.
I've read some folks mentioning that players tend to "horde" such points, all the while playing 'normally', so it becomes difficult to present any real danger to the player's characters, since the players always have their 'ace in the hole'.
However, if that's exactly what you want, then go for it. Also, with something like that...you shouldn't feel the least bit guilty when you arbitrarily poison their ale at the local tavern.
Or...rather...an NPC that has it in for them. I hope YOU don't actually poision THEIR ale.
If you do...

I don't know you and this conversation never happened.

[apeloverage]

Maybe make them disappear if they're not used, to prevent hoarding?

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Well I was thinking about rather low numbers like say 3 to 6 a character and maybe getting to the end of an epic quest might be worth say 1 Karma point.

Mainly its as much for the GM as the players, I'm as much for letting the dice fall as they may as anyone. However when a characters death comes across as meaningless or arbitrary it would save a lot of arguments to give characters a few "Oops" points.

Hmm, maybe calling them "Oops" Points would fit T&T better! ;D

"Arrr I blew the first level SR to make it across the pit, well there goes an Oops Point". Something more like that maybe.

[hellbender]

I sometimes found handling Fate points in Warhammer to be a bit of a foil at times as a GM. I don't like adhering to a strict railroad adventure, but throwing in a thrill here and there just to have the danger waved away just wasn't that much fun for me and the idea is that the whole group has fun, including the person eternally running the games. If they were somehow given restrictions that could make it more of a sale for us cranky GMs.

[machfront]

I wonder what the effects would be on play if the players didn't even know how many (if any) Fate points (or Oops Points -lol-) their characters had?

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Hmmm, a little while back there was a game called "It came from the Late Late Show" and they had a rule that you could pay for a "Film Break" with experience points. So thats an idea, and I would think that just because you don't die would not mean that everything is fine.

It would save your life, but it would not be a panacea and unlike Hero Points in Top Secret or Fate Points in Warhammer you could not use them as instant success points.

Machfront, hidden points huh?

Well it would keep your players on their toes and keep some of the calculation out of it on the players part.

Would the players still decide when to spend the points or would the GM tick one off anytime he had to bend the situation to save the players character?

Hey how about each time you spend a point it cost you some permanent points off LUCK. That way you could literally run out of luck. ;D

Hmm, just an idea.

[machfront]

I guess the hidden points thing would be tricky. A lot of players, even if they really trust the GM in all other matters, would consider it unfair.

I love your idea of actually using the Luck itself. Burning the Luck stat is probably doable.
"Crap. Do I spend three Luck to get out of this now?...what if I need to make a LK SR later...I'll be screwed!" Heh heh.

Or, I guess you could, for your game, allow a LK SR after the initial one, if things go sour. Like:
Player - "I leap to the other side of the pit."
GM - "Make a Level 1 SR on DX."
Player - "Sshhiiiii---"
GM - "Gulth is plummeting towards who knows what. Quick. Make a L2 SR on LK."
Player - "Made it!"
GM - "Gulth grabs a small handhold at the last second that nearly breaks his fingers. He's hanging on for dear life and won't last long. He's telling himself he'll never do this again, and he's dreaming of giving it up and lying in the sun on the beaches of Gull."
Other players: "Gulth?!? Are you alright? Where are you?!?"
Player (Gulth) - "I'M IN GULL!!!"

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

I like that! ;D

It would be great for simulating the kind of luck pulp heros have. Everything seems hopeless, then a stroke of luck saves them and dumps them in a situations almost as bad as what they just got out of.

[machfront]

Out of the frying pan and into the spiked pit.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

Exactly! ;D

[mahrundl]

Good ideas are flowing here. I do like the idea of 'burning Luck'. I'd cost it at more than one point per incident though - perhaps each point of Luck burned reduces the SR level by 1 (but you still have to avoid rolling that automatically failing '3', no matter how low the level goes).

You could even make it a temporary loss - in essence, Luck 'fatigue'. Recovery would be a point per day, or per hour, or some such. I'd make the amount of the loss larger for this than for the permanent case. Probably 5 or 10 times the amount burned using the permanent method would be about right.

[order99]

Many of our Liavek-styled campaigns used LK instead of ST to cast spells-this simulated slowed reflexes and fatigue in combat without making Wizards into bodybuilders, and LK refreshed at the same rate as ST.

From my experiences with the above variant, i'd say that 'burning' LK would probably be quite balanced. As a side effect though, your players will likely call for a much wider variety in SRs (ST, DX, IQ etc).

[kopf]

"...I have been thinking of adding Karma/Fate/Hero Points to my house rules...Just thought I'd throw it out there and see what Y'all think."

I've noticed the solo's, a serious component of the game since before I had a driver's license, is quite filled with "quick kills." Though at the same time, in the group or narrative forms of the game, at least those chronicled, like in the History of Trollworld, there is a lot of very larger-than-life, maybe even long-term, character development so there is some argument for a deus ex machina convention to save a blessed PC every now and then.

For myself though, While I think the convention of "Fame Points" is a great for James Bond 007, I am not sure about it for T&T. I don't think it's very T&T at all. To me, at the heart of T&T is "hack and slash" with ample "puzzle solving" and some sprinkling in of high fantasy allusion thrown on top. I GM a lot, which means I have to entertain my players. One part of keeping my players playing is definitely daydream fulfillment. I happen to grow very fond of players' characters, I even want to write novels about them. But another part of our little parlor game that is adventure gaming is challenges. I have to sit down, sometimes to stare at the T&T rules, and think of how to make obstacles that the players feel that their characters have overcome.

Sometimes, the PC's don't overcome them, or at least all of them do not. It can be a really bad day of rolling. It can be a misapplied strategy. But on my part it wasn't because I didn't do the math in figuring out what the PC's were capable of, or because I couldn't railroad them through the scenario I had in mind. Indeed as a GM I really have to read whether the group wants a linear adventure or whether I need to freeform it a bit for them. As a rule of thumb, no one gets killed while chasing a whim, sometimes their own tail as well, but when we get down to business there is never a guarantee of anyone's survival.

[Toad-Killer-Dog]

As far as temporary LUCK burn goes how about three times the level of the SR in points?

That way little mistakes would not be nearly as costly as blowing a big SR and it would have an immediate effect on both your future SR's and combat ( at least until you gained the points back ).

Hey or how about making that an ability only Rogues or Warriors can use. At higher levels that might help even out the Warrior, Wizard power imbalance.

Hmm, I kind of like that.