uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Feb 17, 2009 15:02:20 GMT -5
Awhile back, last I was on this forum, I was waxing lyrical on severely old-school idea of shop levels on dungeons... for those of you unfamiliar, bascially a small mercantile town set on the 10th-or-so dungeon level, a place with magic shops, blacksmiths, armorers, libraries and inns. (This was the old days, folks - any questions about so-called "ecology" or how/why these people were there and you'd get a "Shush, you!" from the DM. If you kept asking, he'd say "KWATZ" and hit you with a stick. OD&D Zen!) Anyway, I was reading something in the last couple days (possibly in the on-line gaming publication Imazine)which discussed the delving experience and how PCs were limited by resources such as provisions and spells... and it suddenly clicked as to why those shop levels were there. Back in the day, dungeons could easily reach 20, 30 levels - if the PCs were to do the whole thing in one (real-life) lifetime, they had to have some way of recovering spells, healing casualties and disposing of loot that didn't necessarily involve traipsing back up to the surface (and possibly deciding they had something better to do with their time than messing around the Underdark being chased by xorns and umber hulks). Ergo - dungeon shop levels. (Of course, now that I think of it, it may not be that absurd an idea - think Menzoberranzan (sp?), for those of you familiar with the Forgotten Realms.) What's this all got to do with T&T? Well, it's on a T&T forum, innit?
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koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
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Post by koraq on Feb 17, 2009 19:45:06 GMT -5
Megadungeons. Mmm. Me love 'em.
I'm developing my own megadungeon for my regular Wednesday group, and guess what I'm introducing pretty soon? The underground goblin market. :-D
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Feb 17, 2009 21:04:41 GMT -5
Megadungeons. Mmm. Me love 'em. I'm developing my own megadungeon for my regular Wednesday group, and guess what I'm introducing pretty soon? The underground goblin market. :-D Underground goblin market? Well, if you'd grind 'em longer they'd probably sell better. Right next door to the Black Hobbit black hobbit black market for hobbits, I suppose. (It's been a long day.)
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Feb 18, 2009 14:20:00 GMT -5
Anyway, I was reading something in the last couple days (possibly in the on-line gaming publication Imazine)which discussed the delving experience and how PCs were limited by resources such as provisions and spells... Ah, I found it - it was in the same "Primer on Old-School Gaming" I recommended as essential reading on another thread. Viz: Tao of the GM: Way of the Donner Party Old-style gaming has a strong component of what’s often called “resource management.” Spells get used up, hit points are lost, torches get used up, and food gets used up. This is another part of the game that’s been minimized in later editions (particularly in 4th edition). The theory is that no one wants to spend time keeping track of mundane things like torches and food. And it’s a good point – a poor referee can bollix this up if he spends too much time on it. However, one thing you have to realize about 0e: it is indeed a game where managing resources is at the game’s very heart. In fact, I would have called this a fifth Zen moment of realization except that resource management is still a factor in later games – just to a lesser degree. Nevertheless, from the referee’s standpoint you have to manage your game based on this premise: excitement and tension increase as the party is deeper and deeper into the danger zone and their resources are running low.
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unclecranky
5th Level Troll
(mutter...grumble)
Posts: 657
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Post by unclecranky on Feb 18, 2009 16:07:46 GMT -5
True, but if you run it too hard with them, you risk two things. Running away from the gaming table is easily managed by not letting them get there in the first place, but tension is harder to manage without having a player freak out like a rabbit on speed. I solved it by allowing a 'shop' of sorts between levels, where players could buy their spells, then by making the entire first few levels of my megadungeon a ruined city-get to the right room, and you can find just about anything...for the right price. As a matter of fact, this week, my cave's demons are running a special for wizards and rogues. Permanent instruction in all spell levels, in exchange for a commodity everyone has in plenty, and uses all too seldom...
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Post by jasperpcasper on Aug 5, 2009 13:20:50 GMT -5
Hmmm. That unclecranky seems to be a bit of a jerk...imagine not letting newer players at the table!
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Post by ProfGremlin on Aug 5, 2009 14:01:01 GMT -5
I solved it by allowing a 'shop' of sorts between levels, where players could buy their spells, then by making the entire first few levels of my megadungeon a ruined city-get to the right room, and you can find just about anything...for the right price. This brings to mind Hobgoblin's Tavern's Five Minute Fortune #5 - Trouble in Store. Excerpt:
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Post by feldrik on Aug 5, 2009 14:43:18 GMT -5
If it is a 'house and home' or in this case 'town and country' for the monsters then shops do make sense...so do the residents that will be frequenting them in order to eliminate the vermin (PCs) that keep sneaking in.
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Post by ProfGremlin on Aug 5, 2009 15:16:18 GMT -5
... so do the residents that will be frequenting them in order to eliminate the vermin (PCs) that keep sneaking in. now that would be funny... a whole shop dedicated to Building a Better Delver Trap... of course the delvers would only discover said shop after falling afoul of some of the merchandise, i.e. a pile of gold coins on the side of a path that just happens to release a fweezle from it's captive den (ok, it's mad now, too!) when moved...
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Aug 5, 2009 17:50:02 GMT -5
Interesting, With this current group of players, they haven't even got to a "Dungeon", They've found tombs, a Goblin Hole, Ruins and running around the lower levels of a large Keep. Only once did it take them 2 gamin sessions to return to town. One night they didn't even get to the "Adventure" zone and getting to the location is as much a part of the story as heading underground. This has given me some great ideas and the next trip will lead to unexpected places.
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Post by Toad-Killer-Dog on Aug 7, 2009 9:24:14 GMT -5
Hmm, "Shop Levels" I don't think I've ever run across one in a game I've played in. Of course most of the GM's I've run with ran the old "Your all going to die suckers!" style dungeons. If you wanted a more easy to justify "Shop Level" in your dungeon what about throwing in a friendly tribe of humanoids or a small dwarf hold? It gives your players something to blow their hard earned lucre on and have a chance to rest and recuperate. Also you can inflate the prices, restrict the stock, and play on the players inherent paranoia. You could even use it as an adventure hook, "Sure we will help you noble adventurers, if you get rid of these annoying goblins that keep raiding our mushroom fields". What more could you want? Now that I have heard of the idea I heartily recommend throwing in a chances to liberate the characters treasure. After all how else did the loot get into the dungeon in the first place!
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Aug 7, 2009 10:29:23 GMT -5
Hmmm. That unclecranky seems to be a bit of a jerk...imagine not letting newer players at the table! I say we take him out back and give him a good ol' fashioned whuppin'!
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Post by jasperpcasper on Aug 7, 2009 23:50:12 GMT -5
I like the new 7.5 game, but one thing does seem to be missing... the part where they tell you how to 'make' an adventure. Without at least tips on making a map, notes, and the other stuff, how's a 10 or 15 year-old kid gonna figure it out? Intuitively? It's not like KSA included a link here for the advice-columnists in our midst to get our hooks on the newbies...
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 8, 2009 6:25:46 GMT -5
Hm. I'd never noticed that. No GM/adventure advice. A pretty substantial oversight, there. How is a newbie to understand how play in general works at all? The little overview in the section "In The Beginning" is slim at best.
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Post by mahrundl on Aug 8, 2009 21:55:28 GMT -5
I don't recall if that was a deliberate intention of Ken's, but I vaguely seem to recall some discussion during the 7th edition design period that such a section was less necessary these days than when 5th edition came out, just because RPGs in general have been around so much longer and the concepts are spread more widely. The other point being, that 7th edition was a bit of a rush job. Fiery Dragon wanted it out in time for GenCon 2005, and Ken discovered that he'd lost the notes he had on what he wanted in the new edition. It was put together by Ken, with assistance from the folk at Trollhalla, in the space of a couple of months. That there are omissions, errors and oddities is less of a marvel than that it saw the light of day at all... These are my recollections only, and may not be especially accurate. If anyone has information that says differently, I won't argue the point very hard - my memory for detail is, um, what's that word again... Spotty! That was it.
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