Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 25, 2007 22:50:03 GMT -5
It's Christmas night, and I've still got stuff to do, so these comments will be short: Opened the package... "that guy" sent me a FREE 2008 Tunnels & Trolls Calendar. I don't know how he knew that I seriously needed a calendar, but he did, and not only did I not have to pay for it, but he saved me from having to buy one, too, so this was a freakin' fantastic surprise. Oh, and it's a gorgeous calander. No time for a real review right now, but T&T 1e is a special 1985 reprint. Since 1985 is pretty much the time every good thing ever happened to me and I am a child of the 80's, that makes it just about perfect, except.... It doesn't really feel like T&T 1e. It feels like it was probably re-written in 1985 using the 1e rules. It definitely has some different rules in it, but they are more like 5th ed rules than the 4th ed. rulebook I just got. It's an interesting look into the past, and I recommend every T&T fan getting one just for a piece of history, but I don't think it's "true 1e." (Of course, I could be totally wrong and and it could be an exact duplicate of 1e; I'll probably never know). The book is well made and the typesetting is up to date and very professional. It does have a lot of typographical errors. A lot of typographical errors. On the plus side, I've got a whole host of new "in-jokes" (like Wizards casting a "Look Tight" spell instead of "Lock Tight." I'm not sure exactly what that would do ). (I still think it's a great book and a great buy... please don't be put off from buying it if you were interested; it's worth the money... besides, no one's going to actually play it anyway; everyone's playing 7e nowdays). The back cover says, ""that company", Inc. T&T Publications." The T&T4e, however... now that's a thing of beauty in every way possible. BUY THIS BOOK. Especially if you are a 5th ed. fan, then you will love this book in ways that a man should never love a book. Watch out for paper cuts! Typeset in "olde style." The section on charisma says "whether or not you're a frigging Elf" (instead of "grinning Elf" in 5th ed). A simple chart of DEX to Distance is given for Marksmanship SRs, rolled on a single d6. Wizards don't get combat adds! (Exception: they get combat adds barehanded or with a quarterstaff... with any other weapon they get the die roll of the weapon only). Special SR and Experience point rules for monsters (probably the same ones in Monsters! Monsters! but only Order99 knows for sure). "Names" for the different character types as they progress in levels ( a la D&D: Apprentice, Neophyte, Hedge-Wizard, etc.). A " simple" weapons and armor chart early in the book, and "extended" chart in the back. And so much more; and yet, so much less. In other words, this is it, people. This is the real mccoy. This is truly a perfect copy of T&T history. And It Is Gorgeous. When a man loves a gamebook Can't keep his mind on nothin' else He'd trade the world For a good thing he's found If it's is bad, he can't see it It can do no wrong Turn his back on his best friend If he puts it down.... Good thing I'm short on time tonight... sheesh!
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 26, 2007 3:07:52 GMT -5
Yep, i'd say T&T 4th and Monsters! Monsters! would be a perfect fit! Do the weapons have the same Dice as 5th ed., or are they reduced by one as Monsters! Monsters! was? You just HAD to whet my appetite didn't you Fenris? Oh well, guess i'd better line up T&T 4th for January...
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 26, 2007 9:01:13 GMT -5
Yep, i'd say T&T 4th and Monsters! Monsters! would be a perfect fit! Do the weapons have the same Dice as 5th ed., or are they reduced by one as Monsters! Monsters! was? Yep, weapon dice are lower than in 5th edition, by generally about 1 die (a Battle-Axe has only 4d!). Sounds like I need to get Monsters! Monsters! in the queue, also. You know, I'm so enchanted by this 4th ed that I'm just about to consider trying to put together an actual game with it. I'm not really sure why... 5th ed. is mostly revisions and clarifications that improve the game (for example, Rogues can only attain 7th level and then they must switch to either full Warrior (and lose all magic) or full Wizard (and lose their combat adds/ability to use weapons of more than 1 die). That's the sort of thing I would have House Ruled out if the game was written that way! ;D And yet, the presentation is so enchanting, it's impossible to look through it and not think, "I wonder how that would play out in an actual game...." I did find something that suggests that the 1e book does use the 1e material: the "level names" progression goes up to 17 in 1e, but only to 8/War 12/Wiz in 4e; beyond that, no new "level names" are given. The 4e rulebook states that it "doesn't have as many silly names as...previous editions." So, basically, 1e and 4e rules are virtually identical, which is surprising to me considering how different 5e is by comparison. Once again, let me repeat here that it is my nature to gripe and complain about everything, so don't confuse these comments with actual griping and complaining! 1e is an excellent book and excellent purchase. It's easily as high quality as anything out there today, at about 1/2 the price! It just doesn't really "feel" like an old game, but more like a "retro" game (see the Mazes & Minotaurs pdfs for an example). Some of that may be because it's so high quality that it doesn't look like it could have come from 1985! (Come to think of it, has anyone ever noticed the large number of typos in today's games...?). 4e, by comparison, looks and feels just like something you'd pull off the used game shelf of your favorite new & used rpg store... just without the edges black with dirt, writing in the margins, or some 12-year-old's name on the inside front cover! And, yes Order99, I just HAD to whet your appetite! Turnabout is fair play, after all!
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 27, 2007 2:34:26 GMT -5
So 1st and 4th editions are nearly identical? Perhaps they should have labeled them 1st through 4th PRINTING, with 5th ed. being 2nd... I find it comforting that T&T feels no need to reinvent the wheel. Considering some OTHER game has: Original Boxed Set Holmes Boxed set AD&D 1st Basic D&D(Moldvay/Cook) Basic D&D (Mentzer) AD&D 2nd D&D Rules Cyclopedia(Basic) That D20 pretender That upcoming Pretender I'll stick with T&T/MS&PE, thanks.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 27, 2007 8:33:16 GMT -5
So 1st and 4th editions are nearly identical? Perhaps they should have labeled them 1st through 4th PRINTING, with 5th ed. being 2nd... I agree with you completely on all counts, Order99. I mean, I agree with you completely. On everything. The whole post. Hurry up and buy 4e, Order! I want someone to talk to about some of the stuff in it that's not in 5e or 7e! Some other cool stuff: They recommend the "winning side" of a combat take the equivalent of 10% of the total the "losing side" takes in combat (hits generated by weapons only), in the name of "realism." E.g. if the monsters take 30 hits, the players take three. Since armor does protect against these hits, they seem to exist mainly to make the battle sound more "real," as it's unlikely anybody would actually take any CON damage in most battles. Rogues in fourth edition are pushed to choose War or Wizardry, but 4e Rogues may choose to become "Wizard-Warriors." Warriors don't get "double armor" protection (or, at least, I can't find mention of it anywhere). Instead, Warriors and Rogues get combat adds, but Warriors can't cast magic; Rogues and Wizards can cast magic, but Wizards don't get combat adds. Nice and simple. (Unbalance alert: Rogues apparently can use the same proficiency rules as Wizards, making them seem the best class in the game, although I haven't playtested it to know for certain). There is a system of "burning armor" that Warriors can use, where they can multiply their armor value x their level for one combat turn, but the armor is considered destroyed after that turn (making that rule about useless). The most major rule change I've found between 1e & 4e: Armor is 1e is only usable once. Any time you take hits, you have to choose to take them to your CON or your Armor. Hits to CON destroy you, hits to armor destroy it. Luckily, I see no mention of this rule in 4e. But, basically, 4e seems like a great game, and wonderfully playable. Many of the changes in 5e were perfect, but I find that I really do like some of the things in 4e just as they were! I'm playing around with trying a 4e game, at least for awhile... I'm quite curious to how it would play out. And let me know when you're about to order your order, Order! If the money is available, I'll try to get Monsters! Monsters! from "that guy" at the same time.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 27, 2007 12:39:38 GMT -5
January only...few days away...must....resist...sigh. New Years resolution-I will limit myself to TWO Outlaw purchases a month. I obviously can't hold out at one... Hey, three pages and we're still vaugely on-topic...must be a new record!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 27, 2007 12:50:04 GMT -5
January only...few days away...must....resist...sigh. Hey, three pages and we're still vaugely on-topic...must be a new record! Well, to be fair, ""that company" Stuff" covers a lot of ground. Strictly speaking, we've changed topics a whole buncha times.... I have about 20 copies (no exaggeration) of T&T, as for some reason I have some weird thing about being sure to have some copies left in case it ever goes out of print, and I want to be able to play it until the day I die. Since I've been playing it for over 20 years, I don't find it difficult to imagine that I'll be playing it another 20 years more. Anyway, the point is, I'm just ga-ga over 4e, so I wanted to be sure to grab a second copy of that... so I just sucked it up and bought it a few minutes ago... and since I was there anyway, I went ahead and grabbed Monsters! Monsters!, also, so it should be here in a couple of days. Luckily, I am interested almost exclusively in old T&T stuff, so a lot of it doesn't really interest me personally (books of house rules and new items, for example), so it's not really that hard for me to resist. But those things that I do want, I really really want....
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 28, 2007 2:55:55 GMT -5
Just sent away for 4th, along with the 2007 Houserules...I know, but it won't ARRIVE until New Years, so i'm still good! I have to admit that I am fond of Houserules-mostly because I love to see what others are doing to the game, same reason as I like this Forum actually. Of course, I view every RPG I own(as well as every book, comic and movie i've ever seen/read) as potential fodder for every OTHER RPG I own. Cross-connecting is a good way to recharge flagging inspiration, at least in my case. As far as your T&T collecting bit-it's a shame no one wants to release anything here in PDF. I can understand the fear of piracy but surely a Watermarked copy would prevent that? I believe that a T&T Reference PDF(just the barebones, equipment table, spells up to Lvl 4 or so, etc.) would be a great "teaser" item-especially if it was in GM Screen format. As of right now though, T&T in some form seems guaranteed for years to come-and if(Lord Forbid!) something should happen, you can wait until a few copies begin to degrade, separate the pages and place in clear sleeves for several more decades of use.
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Post by apeloverage on Dec 28, 2007 3:52:19 GMT -5
I believe that a T&T Reference PDF(just the barebones, equipment table, spells up to Lvl 4 or so, etc.) would be a great "teaser" item-especially if it was in GM Screen format. There's this - www.freedungeons.com/rules/It's the rules as used in the Corgi solo adventures.
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Dec 28, 2007 9:19:20 GMT -5
CUUUUUUURSE YOOOOOUUUU FENRIS!
As I sit here I'm ordering T&T 4th - the "frigging Elf" comment sold it. ;D
Bah! Rotten-person-who-makes-other-people-spend-money-they-don't-need-to-be-spending!
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 28, 2007 10:34:40 GMT -5
As I sit here I'm ordering T&T 4th - the "frigging Elf" comment sold it. ;D LOL! Thankyou! Thankyouverymuch! If you like the "frigging Elf" then you'll love the book in general... there are lots of comments in it that are "unexpected," but I don't want to tell them here because I don't want to take away from the "shock effect" when you first read them. It definitely seems like much more of an "amateur press" effort than the 5e we've all come to know and love. And, (and this is hard to explain), it's "amateur press" but it's also... sort of "alternative" to the rest of the hobby. It seems to revel in it's "un-authorized" style. I own a few "amateur press" games, and most of them are the same as professional games, only the art is a usually not quite as high quality. T&T4e is different. If you're a comic book fan, T&T5e is kind of like Dark Horse or Eclipse, etc. That is, not one of the Big Two, but still a good quality product. T&T4e is more like Kitchen Sink Press, by comparison. A good product and a fun read, but amateur and proud of it. It feels very much like a group of friends (with attitudes) got together and made a roleplaying game. Be aware, it's only about 50 pages; I'm talking it up a lot, and it's a really great book, but T&T5e is a much better "game" in a stricter sense. But T&T4e is a great read, a wonderful look at the history of the game, and completely playable. I think you'll have a blast; I know I am.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 28, 2007 10:46:52 GMT -5
it's a shame no one wants to release anything here in PDF. I can understand the fear of piracy but surely a Watermarked copy would prevent that? I believe that a T&T Reference PDF(just the barebones, equipment table, spells up to Lvl 4 or so, etc.) would be a great "teaser" item-especially if it was in GM Screen format. See, I'm just old... I don't like pdfs. I want paper. I want a book. I want to be able to read it in the park, on the john, on a bus, at work, by candlelight, or where-ever and whenever. I want to be able to throw a piece of scrap paper in between the pages and that is how I "bookmark" it. I wanna be able to write in the margins... not that I ever would, but I want to be able to. Pdfs are okay if that's all you can find, I guess, but I'm just all about books. Sigh. What a drag it is getting old.
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order99
7th Level Troll
Coffee-fueled Carrion That Walks Like a Man
Posts: 1,039
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Post by order99 on Dec 28, 2007 12:30:25 GMT -5
Apeloverage- That's exactly what I mean right there-just enough to start a sample game(like the Solo modules), easy enough to print handouts for new players, converts to Text via word processor for chopping out the tables(GM Screen in ten minutes). Something like that should be on the FBI website or at "that company"...a free download to get 'em hooked!
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uburoi
4th Level Troll
Rarr 'n' stuff.
Posts: 486
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Post by uburoi on Dec 29, 2007 22:34:41 GMT -5
By the way -
kudos to the Hobbit! I received the order I placed Wed. morning with "that company" Friday afternoon. AND shipping was included, which it isn't from Noble Knight. AND the "Hobbit Hole" issues are VERY nice, quite a professional product. Reviews will be forthcoming.
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Fenris
5th Level Troll
Weapon Hand Severed!
Posts: 614
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Post by Fenris on Dec 31, 2007 10:32:52 GMT -5
Woo-hoo! Just got my copy of Monsters! Monsters! Plus my second copy of T&T4e (because I'm a freak), and a special bonus, the "Wytches" solo adventure, absolutely free! So, does "that guy" read our posts and determine what to send us based on what he's reading? Because I can't figure out how, of all the solos he could have sent, he sent one of the only two that looked interesting to me (the other, of course, being Nymph-o-mania). His intuition is amazing (50)! Anyway, I'm psyched! I'll be back after spending some, ahem, "quality time" with my new game books! Oh, when a ma-an loves a gamebook....EDIT: Wytches is a "Halloween" themed solo! As a card carrying "goth" (seriously, I'll show you my card sometime) and "dark arts/occult" fanatic, I am seriously drooling over this solo. I'm getting my dice all slimy.....
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