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Post by feldrik on Jul 24, 2009 19:34:34 GMT -5
I have to confess that i am doing more theory than practice these days but it keeps me in the mood so when the time comes...DIE DELVERS!
(unless I am one)
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Post by ragnorakk on Jul 26, 2009 20:43:07 GMT -5
Awesome discussion guys - my great timing on getting knocked off the net for a while. A lot of topics here.
Design genius == simplicity, yes - Ken totally hit it out of the park right from the start. Machfront, you've put into words a process I've not been able to delineate as well, thank you. It took me a while to crack T&T because I felt like it was missing something - it wasn't 'complicated' enough. After reading the lists of weapons, checking the glossary and just drool drool drooling all over the book, how much time did I look at the next page and say to myself, OK, but where's the monster manual? Of course, once it did click, I dreaded having to go back and run AD&D (at the time, the game of choice in my gaming circle).
T&T is eminently scalable and adaptable. While the accident of it's birth certainly seems to put it in the old-school category, the game is very 'close-to-the-metal' - it demands Do-It-Yourself much moreso than D&D did (a la is the Jabberwock MR 10, 40, or 100? Hmmm... vs. Jabberwock, page 16, AC -1, HD 7,... etc). While intimidating at first, being used to a certain degree of spoon feeding, how liberating it was once the gears meshed.
I've never really had a problem with Priests in T&T, though I've never tried to codify them as a character type. (never had a player express a desire to play a priest or cleric or such). But I've also never had a problem with inventing spells or adapting ones from other games to T&T, so priests and shamans and such have showed up as NPCs with weird spells keyed to their religion or deity or somesuch. D&D clerics never 'did it' for me - the templar/vampire hunter thing as D&D presented it - I'm more partial to the shaman and the wizard-who-pacts-with-supernatural-forces type thing instead...thank ye gods that T&T had not a single mention of the word 'alignment' that I can recall!
But any approach is easily implemented in T&T, because it is so d**n simple at the root. I'm bi-polar on crunch - sometimes I love it, but it's so easy to get carried away. A silly analogy: I like to eat chocolate chips. I keep them in the freezer so that when I eat them they crunch. But I don't eat rocks. heh. sorry. When I was a kid, one of my players wanted to a thief-type character, so we gave him a bonus to Saving Rolls on 'thiefly' actions, (a proto-talent I guess) and that worked. That's all it took.
Anyway, yes - awesome thread. Kudos all around.
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Jul 26, 2009 20:50:42 GMT -5
The birth of T&T, great design and a brilliant luck saving roll. Simplicity was the hallmark of T&T. A key aspects that I feel has become lost with the 7 rules, simplicity. The great thing about the version 5 rules, it had all those things people say are missing. It just needed the GM to use their knowledge of the rules to incorporate it. A player wants their character to be a Healer, no problems, give them the Poor Baby spell and tell them they are a Wizard/Healer. Make them seek herbs/fungus/equipment, via SRs and make SRs to use the right combinations to speed recovery.
Skills/Talents, I've tried many different methods house rules, MS&PE style, and the new v7 Talents, but in the end they only slow the game, limit character development and make the game more complex. When you look at the game-play purpose of skills and talents they are to lower the required SR levels. Again, the v5 rules easily accommodates character skills. As the game unfolds the characters attempt SR's to complete tasks. Lets take for instance tying a rope around themselves as a safeguard while climbing. After a number of SRs for tying knots, I lower the required SR level. Eventually when they say they are roping up to climb they don't even need to roll. The characters now have a skill. (If things become mundane, I'll throw in a Level 0 SR just to catch those critical fails)
Another good way is to watch while characters make SRs, and let DARO be your guide, if they roll 2 or more doubles then I suggest they are getting skilled at that task. Again, the Party always makes Rose a low level wizard look after the horses, she has to brush them down, feed and water them. After a few SRs to ensure everything goes as plan she gets lower SRs when handling horses. As a GM all I have to say is "You're getting good at..." and the players know that they can argue for a lower SR if that skill is involved. No housekeeping, or additional rules. Often the players don't even write it down, they know the things their Characters are good at.
One of the reasons computer RPGs developed was because the games became too complex, T&T is a fun and easy game to learn and play don't complicate it.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Jul 26, 2009 23:19:01 GMT -5
Quog! I haven't seen a post from the Southern Most Troll for an age! Hope you are fine and well...
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 27, 2009 0:21:14 GMT -5
I think I like the 7.5 "talent as bonus" very much. I don't restrict it to one stat, if there's compelling reason. It enhances (not stymies) character development, because I don't have to remember who's getting good at what; I can say "you've done so much with that stuff, start a new talent at +1"...
it adds only a tiny bit more complexity, and enhances players ability to mechanically define the character.
Likewise, 7.X opens up a very different, much more player centric, and much more immediate, mode of advancement; I always felt stymied by 5.0's advancement rules, honestly. In 7.5, it feels a lot different... more continuous growth. I honestly feel it far superior, specifically because of the differences in advancement, the talent system, and the additional types for Citizen and Specialists.. a total of 11, of which I nerf 2... Rangers I give full adds with missiles, half adds elsewhere, and leaders get half adds period. It would be nice if Ken had specified the actual assumptions for monsters.
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kyllia
Lurker under the Bridge
Posts: 6
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Post by kyllia on Jul 30, 2009 16:30:02 GMT -5
Machfront,
To be perfectly honest, no, Ken didn't realise how brilliant T&T was until a bunch of us kept hammering it into his brain in 2001 on BFT. --He is a quixotic fellow with a heart of gold, but he frequently sells himself short.
If we who then were part of the pre-Trollhallan inner circle hadn't lovingly kicked his ass into high gear, there wouldn't be he T&T Renaissance there is today with "that company" brought back into the fold, as it were.
I'd like to add, though, that there were a handful of other unsung squires who helped Ken realise that this game was worth giving a good gosh darn about: Brian Penn and Bernard Assaf are just two names that readily spring to mind, and only mentioning them is a disservice to all the others (Throst, et.al,) --Really, it took fans to make Ken shuffle-off the glooms of perceived obscurity, so don't forget to drop by Trollhalla and give him a personal 'thank you' for his great work.
Kyllia Kreeperkin / Kyrinn S. Eis / Timeshadows
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Jul 30, 2009 17:15:08 GMT -5
I'm sure the Trollhallian Trolls at that time would also claim ass kicking privileges. I think the dedication list in 5.5 special edition reflects many/most of those who assisted in lifting T&T back from obscurity.
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kyllia
Lurker under the Bridge
Posts: 6
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Post by kyllia on Jul 30, 2009 17:22:10 GMT -5
Just goes to show, no good deed ever goes unpunished. I do distinctly remember writing pre-Trollhalla. --Hmm. Maybe we can turn this thread ugly, but only if we try very hard to do so. Want to give it a spin?
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Jul 30, 2009 17:38:44 GMT -5
LOL, arm wrestle or drinking.
I'm sure there were many who carried the torch through those long dark years. I'm sure Ken & Rick were both getting pressure from many sides to do another print run of T&T and make it available again. From memory it was out of stock at FBI for well over 5 years. Thanks to the internet for allowing this scattered band of beleaguered adventures to join forces, hoist Ken onto our shoulders, and form a mighty army.
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Post by feldrik on Jul 30, 2009 19:03:48 GMT -5
I met him a GenCon briefly a couple years ago, I think he would enjoy us hoisting a case of mead on our shoulders and bringing it to him instead but I may be wrong...so lets do both!
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Jul 30, 2009 19:15:40 GMT -5
LOL, arm wrestle or drinking. I'm sure there were many who carried the torch through those long dark years. I'm sure Ken & Rick were both getting pressure from many sides to do another print run of T&T and make it available again. From memory it was out of stock at FBI for well over 5 years. Thanks to the internet for allowing this scattered band of beleaguered adventures to join forces, hoist Ken onto our shoulders, and form a mighty army. FBI ran out of large rulebooks in Nov 2002, but sold with the corgi rulebooks for some time after. So said the FBI website in Feb 2003.... web.archive.org/web/20030211012351/www.flyingbuffalo.com/tandt.htmAnd FBI was archived in 1996... and the site still looks the same... Ugh...
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Post by djacknh on Jul 30, 2009 21:44:31 GMT -5
I played T&T from '79 to '83. Played a few other games along the years and found my long lost love again five years ago. And I ain't going back to mega-rules no more no more no more no more...
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jul 31, 2009 6:44:04 GMT -5
kyllia, You're absolutely right. There are far more folks involved, and this doesn't just include the recent folks who've kept T&T alive during that relatively quiet interem, but also the folks who helped shape the game in it's early years. Jim Peters, Mike Stackpole, Roy Cram, Steve McAllister, and most obviously Liz Danforth, and many others. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the game could really have done with some of their input these past few years.
I'm not familiar with all the names of the more recent T&T luminaries, but Brian Penn is certainly one. I remember seeing his stuff online back when I first starting digging into the web for old rpg stuff when I started getting online (with regularity) back in '97 or '98 or so. His name just kept popping up. Who knew I'd be rubbing shoulders with him years later right here. ;D I've not been impressed with folks of a celebrity nature since I was very young, but for some odd reason, I still get into that brainspace when it comes to rpg folks. I realize it's very "teen girl gushing over The Beatles" sort of silliness, but these folks were still very 'head and shoulders' above me I thought. How was I to know that they were regular people jus' like me, only...much smarter and more creative. -lol-
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jul 31, 2009 6:44:46 GMT -5
Maybe we can turn this thread ugly, but only if we try very hard to do so. Want to give it a spin? Wait. What? Did I miss something?
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Jul 31, 2009 6:46:14 GMT -5
I'd always wondered... That's why I run across FBI box sets on eBay on occasion with the Corgi book in them. I figured it may have been something like that, but I wasn't certain.
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