machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 3, 2009 9:46:15 GMT -5
Then it's missing it. It should have been there. d6 is the standard damage in the 3LBBs. It's in my printing, which is a late printing as yours (likely a Sixth printing) as well as my pdf. The complexity comes from the interactions of the various subsystems. And sure, a player need not know anything other than "Tell me what you're trying and I will tell you what to roll"... but that's still not reducing the complexity a wit if the rules are used... they are still just as complex whether the player knows them or not, so long as the GM uses them. And by the way, thank you for supporting my argument. When the T&T GM needs structured naval or arial combat, he'll have to design a system or use a system from elsewhere and the playing field is yet leveled out again. If the T&T GM and the D&D DM want to just make somthing up, then they both do it. The only difference is that a system is present in one and not present in another. Same with combat. The T&T player adds up all his dice and adds. The D&D player just rolls one die and reads one number. The T&T GM does his math for the opponents and the math for the figuring of damage for the loser and then armor is subtracted as well. The D&D DM sees that the target number has or has not been rolled. All of the above folks subtract hit or CON points. Same. Just different.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 3, 2009 13:43:04 GMT -5
It may be on a different page or on the top of the next due to a formatting difference between prints (though I don't think this ever occured). The sentence regarding damage is directly under the "to hit" table ("Attack Matrix 1: Men Attacking" in the "Alternative Combat" section.) It appears there isn't a printing with the damage information missing. www.acaeum.com/forum/post-24049.html#24049I know. I should let this go. I normally would have, but it was bugging me.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Aug 3, 2009 15:17:40 GMT -5
The acaeum is wrong in this case. It is not wrapped to the next page, it is not on any page. I snapped a couple of photos. aramis.hostman.us/dandd/ it shows page 19 bottom and p 20 top. Since it shows basic, it has to be post 77 for holmes. The mentzer edition reference to doing 1d6 is in the introductory solos section; Variable weapon damage is listed in the section on group play (p60), and strongly implied as the norm. I stand corrected on Moldvay, with the caveat that, per page b25, monsters always do the listed damage in their entry, not 1d6; it's a weapons thing, not a damage thing, to always do 1d6. Even then it immediately suggests the variable weapon damage.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 4, 2009 3:59:55 GMT -5
Wow. That's...really weird. I couldn't find any info on that at all. It may be one of those very late printings that some folks loosely call 6.5 or 7th printing (usually with a "?" at the end. -lol-). The guys at Th Acaeum may know more or may be interested to know/see this.
And, yes, the weapons do d6 in B/X. That's what I originally said. "No need to track weapon damage as they all do d6."
Aaannndd another long threadjack.
Hm. How to get back to the subject at hand?
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 4, 2009 4:05:56 GMT -5
Just to reiterate... I firmly believe that what Ken set out to do, he did, and knew he did. Make a fantasy role-playing game that was simple and intuative.
I still wonder if, at least by the time the game had been played a number of times in his circle of friends if he (or in fact, they) saw just how well integrated it all was. SRs keeping combat from becoming stale or taking too long as well as making it pulpy and cinematic as well. SRs allowing PCs to attempt (mechanically) pretty much anything. The broad Types being a boon instead of a 'restriction'. The attribute advancement dovetailing so well into SRs, as well as showing how delvers were capable of more than your regular shopkeep or farmer, and as being analogous to skills without having a skill system.
I mean, I know he and all those folks were pretty sharp people. It may have taken only a few plays for them all to have a moment where they slapped their foreheads and saw just how it was not only elegant, but made so much darn sense.
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Post by djacknh on Aug 4, 2009 8:56:07 GMT -5
Also the system of adds was brilliant. Instead of having five different modifiers for a fighter, just incorporate it all into into one category, adds.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 4, 2009 12:36:57 GMT -5
Oh, indeed. Adds is "one of those things". Not just attack. Nope. Not that simple. Not just 'ability'. Nope. All of that, plus defense and overall capability and familiarity and raw ability in combat and similar. All boiled down to one, nice, simple number. It looks so small and unassuming on the character sheet all by itself, but it stands for so much. Who needs a house rule to facilitate the Conan or D'Artagnean types? It's already done for ya in Adds. Enough adds and high enough level and our loin-cloth covered barbarian and fluffy-shirted swashbuckler doesn't need armor to be devestating and defend himself at all. Adds are cool. Simple as that.
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Post by feldrik on Aug 4, 2009 13:19:32 GMT -5
As I think about it T&T was designed with only one other RPG as an example. Many today design RPG systems after learning from years of experience from other games, not Ken. He did it with one example and to him that was what NOT to do. Brilliant.
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Post by feldrik on Aug 5, 2009 18:07:21 GMT -5
Just got Barbarians of Lemuria today...
Hogscape, I think its great! The whole system encourages role playing from the moment you start to make your character...role playing is the core mechanic (with some dice rolling and modifiers for a bit of excitememnt).
I hope to give it a try but my group has other stuff on the agenda. Right now that Hasbro game and Even Odds playtesting...but any gaming is good gaming with these guys so I will wait awhile to spring BoL on them.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 6, 2009 5:47:47 GMT -5
I got my copy of BoL yesterday as well. Oh...but it's awesome! Hogscape, dividing up the spells into bigger 'chunks' (the magnitudes) was a good way to go. That whole game positively reeks of S&S from every pore. Simon did a right bang-up job. (I'm glad the boons and flaws are all listed at the back in a long list. Makes it easier to grab already existing ones from the game and quickly build my own racial (or whatever) groupings (Like Lankhmarites. ;D Oh, yeah!) Anyway. S'posed to be talkin' 'bout T&T... but BoL is super-cool.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Aug 6, 2009 9:29:36 GMT -5
BoL is most excellent. How do you find the 2d6 system (that was all Simon's work of course)?
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Post by feldrik on Aug 6, 2009 12:29:04 GMT -5
The 2d6 system looks pretty nice, feels like a T&T SR without the DARO. It is a nice simple system that look like it facilitates role playing. I need to strong arm my friends into giving things a try. I will make a few characters just to get in the groove, I wonder if it works for solo modules??
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Aug 6, 2009 13:00:03 GMT -5
The mechanics seem pretty sensible. But it's the careers-as-skills deal that's the deal-maker. I'm frankly surprised this game wasn't created in the 70's. It new and old-school at the same time, and it would seem to work perfectly for it's intended genre. I came upon the original long ago when Simon first trotted it out over at 1km1tw. He's certainly outdone himself with the newer, bigger, stronger, better version. So far, I've only read snippets here and snippets there, but it had me excited about it's possibilites in very short order.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Aug 6, 2009 20:37:25 GMT -5
The Careers as Skills has been done before. Runeslayers (AKA Runequest Slayers) did it in 2002. (It saw web release when the rights reverted from AH.)
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Post by jasperpcasper on Aug 7, 2009 2:41:58 GMT -5
Don't crush that dwarf. Hand ME the pliers.
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