Character type drift in 7e and 7.5e

[machfront]

Jul 25, 2009 14:52:51 GMT -5 Aramis of Erak said:

Sorry, Machfront, not Just like 5th. In 7.X (I checked both 7.0 and 7.5), a wizard may power up his spells, but a rogue isn't a wizard. So said rogue can't whomp off a TTYF-5 for IQx5 damage.

from 7.5:
Just as Wizards may cast spells for less WIZ points as they increase in character level (see 36), so too can Wizards cast their spells at a higher level of efficacy – but at a greater cost in kremm.

Now, I've always restricted rogues to not pushing spells, but allowed teaching them up-powered versions. Not in the rules that way (in 5.x, they can push; in 7.x teaching is only at base level)

Ah, ok, I see.
I missed the implication, since I was essentially looking for info relating to rogues instead of info on wizards.
Thanks for clearing that up.

So, in that case, that means that rogues are "worse off" than they used to be... which is in opposition to what was said on the Walla that hogscape mentioned (that rogues couldn't do before what they can now, whereas it's obvious the opposite is true.)

[unclecranky]

Or you could just houserule the previous editions rule back in - that Rogues can, in fact, cast at higher level (up to 7th), but have to pay the full cost in Wiz for it..

[Aramis of Erak]

At which point, Cranky, the Rogue is pretty much overpowered...

7's a very different game, despite the similarities in rules.

[unclecranky]

Not necessarily. All you need to do is select appropriate talents for the Wizards and Warriors, and the perceived 'over-power' drops down to normal levels. Of course that would be the province of the GM and players in question, wouldn't it, Aramis?
Besides, when has 'balance of power' ever been an issue in this game?

[Aramis of Erak]

Based upon the design notes, the rogue is supposed to be weaker than a wizard at magic; given the way players think of rogues, and 7th advancement, they soon cease to be... Then again, the teacher spell also was anti-rogue nerfed, too... only wizards and paragons get a chance to learn the spell permanently; rogues and citizens can only get one casting by the rules as written:
"The target gains no true understanding of the spell, simply the mechanical ability to cast it, once, at the spell’s base
level."

So, essentially, someone decided Rogues were too good, obviously convinced KSA of this*, and Ken nerfed them in several places. The Teacher Spell, the lack of inclusion in ability to power-up spells... but it's made up for by the blackletter best of IQ LK DX roguery talent subbing for ALL IQ, DX or LK saves. It may not be "balance" driven, but it is a clear pattern of making them less potent, especially when experienced, especially since Roguery is strongly implied to be uniquely wide.


* or subverted the text post-Ken, but I doubt that.

[unclecranky]

That's probably true, Aramis, but then...there's also this little bit at the very front of the edition 7.5 rules, maybe you haven't gotten quite that far, that says quite clearly..."You don't have to abide by everything I've written in these rules. Do what works for you and your gamers. If you haven't messed with the printed rules and made at least a couple of changes, you aren't really playing Tunnels and Trolls." The author noted seems to be someone named...oh, let's see here... maybe I need to get new reading glasses....Ken St. Andre. So it appears, even to my comparatively uneducated and over-medicated eyes, Aramis, that I'm doing it 'right'.

[Aramis of Erak]

Invitation to ignore or change the rules is irrelevant to understanding the rules, Cranky. I'm the kind of guy who puts my house rules down on paper so my players know what's different.

[machfront]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if some folks made enough noise about it that Ken changed it and it wound up being detrimental to the game in general. Quite often, the hardcore gamers are louder, and just as often, those are the folks that don't really understand the game as a whole, only seeing the parts that are "broken" without realizing that they aren't broken at all. "The squeakiest wheel gets the grease." and all that.
It happened with D&D. The people who misunderstood the design yelled the loudest and the game was reworked to those demands, making the game heavier and, imo, worse.
IMO also, I think this is pretty much just what happened with 7.x as well.

[unclecranky]

hmmph. You're probably right, Mach. Aramis, I always write my houserules down, and the reason I have a printer attached to the funny little picture-box here, is so that I can get copies to people in a format that they can read. Whatever gave you the nonsensical notion that I didn't?

[Hogscape]

Apologies folks I must have really misread the Walla thread. I think it was probably just one disenfranchised-feeling troll getting something green and sticky off his flesh, which is good for the sole from time to time.

I've scrolled back through the Walla looking for the discussion I thought I'd read - must get back on the meds. Apologies again.