kwll
4th Level Troll
Posts: 258
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Post by kwll on Nov 9, 2010 1:40:04 GMT -5
Ok, so it's a personal project of yours. From the first post of this thread, I thought you wanted an exchange of ideas, or some kind of committee led design for the new game.
Fair enough. Are you keen to exchange what you have done, now or in the future?
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 580
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Post by apn on Nov 9, 2010 17:43:56 GMT -5
No, not a personal project, by any means, but when things started going quiet I had a dabble with writing a few bits. Mostly trying to work out a dice rolling system. Truth told I played about with the marvel universe system and the old Marvel Super Heroes ranks (excellent, remarkable etc) but if there's still interest in doing a join effort I'll pitch in with ideas, writing, and so on. I guess the 1st thing to do would be to work out a task resolution system. Everything else after that tends to be the 'fluff' or details, like powers, skills, game world, and so on. But point of the original post was that a system reference document (SRD) of the T&T rules would be a bad thing considering the "that company" events (and I notice there is an email today - from Ken, actually apologising to "that company"... That's not good news) so figured we could still do something - as a group - using some of the T&T mechanics (or similar mechanics anyway, but not an out and out rip off) to do a supers game. I think a lot of the spells would convert into powers and skills, for example. The main thing I love about T&T is the attack roll. One roll covering attack/defence and meaning that fights don't drag on forever, which is a PbP killer. If anything ever got done/finished, I'd then like to run a PbP game on these boards I already run a long term (over a year now) supers game on my own board but really like the idea of using a home brewed from the ground up game created by members of this board...
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sligo
4th Level Troll
Read my blog: http://indysligo.weebly.com/
Posts: 495
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Post by sligo on Nov 9, 2010 19:54:20 GMT -5
Arg.... I just got an idea. But before I share it, I need to think about it. It has to do with people with super-powers, but more in the vein of Heroes or No Ordinary Family. Characters who are discovering their powers while trying to live somewhat ordinary lives...
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kwll
4th Level Troll
Posts: 258
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Post by kwll on Nov 10, 2010 2:24:41 GMT -5
No, not a personal project, by any means, but when things started going quiet I had a dabble with writing a few bits. Mostly trying to work out a dice rolling system. Truth told I played about with the marvel universe system and the old Marvel Super Heroes ranks (excellent, remarkable etc) but if there's still interest in doing a join effort I'll pitch in with ideas, writing, and so on. I guess the 1st thing to do would be to work out a task resolution system. Everything else after that tends to be the 'fluff' or details, like powers, skills, game world, and so on. But point of the original post was that a system reference document (SRD) of the T&T rules would be a bad thing considering the "that company" events (and I notice there is an email today - from Ken, actually apologising to "that company"... That's not good news) so figured we could still do something - as a group - using some of the T&T mechanics (or similar mechanics anyway, but not an out and out rip off) to do a supers game. I think a lot of the spells would convert into powers and skills, for example. The main thing I love about T&T is the attack roll. One roll covering attack/defence and meaning that fights don't drag on forever, which is a PbP killer. If anything ever got done/finished, I'd then like to run a PbP game on these boards I already run a long term (over a year now) supers game on my own board but really like the idea of using a home brewed from the ground up game created by members of this board... Well, that is good news, because I could not help having my brain run in every directions about how to adapt the T&T rule set to the supers genre. I have got a small (but growing!) laundry list of what should be adapted / modified to achieve that, starting with a task resolution system. Hell, after the input from Prof Gremlin, I even started thinking about a setting to use them with. So far I got ideas to include a good old fantasy world with hostile aliens, big space ships and, of course, supers. It has even got warrior monks with psi powers! If ideas keep coming up, I am afraid I will have to poor them out to this board not to be overwhelmed... ;D
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Post by sonofliefeld on Nov 10, 2010 7:41:04 GMT -5
I notice there is an email today - from Ken, actually apologising to "that company"... That's not good news can you give any more information on this?
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kwll
4th Level Troll
Posts: 258
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Post by kwll on Nov 10, 2010 8:49:28 GMT -5
I don't know if it is OK to reproduce his message here. If it is not, I trust the moderators will simply remove the following text...
<SPOILER>
Public Apology to "that guy"
A few days ago, I sent a mail to all Trollhalla members in which I tried to explain my current relationship with "that guy" and "that company". As you may know, we are not on good terms, and I let my anger get the better of me. That is no excuse. I should have remembered my courtesy, and not called him any names at all. I certainly should not have called him a felon. I recant. I take it all back. Despite our differences, Jim "that guy" is a gentleman, and I will never insult him again. I sincerely hope we can resolve our differences, and that my lapse in courtesy last week can be overlooked and forgotten.
Sincerely, Ken St. Andre"
P.S. I hereby ask anyone who carried my previous message about "that guy" to take that message down and run this one in its place.
Ken St. Andre November 8, 2010
</SPOILER>
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 580
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Post by apn on Nov 10, 2010 9:37:07 GMT -5
The whole "that company" thing is a mess. I have my own opinions, as I'm sure you guys do, but that message goes to show that you need to watch what you say and where you say it. Ken might not have the means, will or motivation (i.e. the rewards don't justify the cost and aggravation) to defend his intellectual properties but OP might, hence the embarrassing public apology. As I said, a mess. Am sure it will run and run, sadly ========= Back on the original topic - Dice mechanic for a supers game. I've been playing around with using D6s (as T&T does, easy to get hold of etc) in the following way: Task Resolution - roll equal to or greater than target number for success. A 6 explodes, so you get bonus dice to roll (still toying on whether a roll of 1 cancels out a bonus die). Alternately maybe a system where you get a bonus die for rolling a multiple of 2-6, and a 1 cancels out a bonus die. I like the multiple system better, but it gets some really silly numbers sometimes. I do have a way round that too. Normal people have 2D6 (or, a score of 2) on their stats, heroes have 3D6 (a score of 3) and superhumans have higher than 3. Skills allow you to roll extra dice, but you have to pick which ones to use and drop the rest. How many you pick depends on the stat being tested. e.g. Night Shrike climbs a wall. This uses his dexterity of 3, but he has climbing of 3 as well. The player rolls 6D6 and picks which three to use. 1s still cancel out bonus dice though. The player rolls 5,6,3,1,4 and 3. He keeps the 5,6 and 4. The 6 normally allows a bonus die, but the 1 cancel the bonus die out. Difficulty number is based on: Typical 5-8 Good 9-15 Excellent 16-25 Remarkable 26-35 Incredible 36-45 Amazing 46-65 Monstrous 66-85 Unearthly 86-125 Shift X 126-175 Shift Y 176-300 Shift Z 301-750 Class 1000 750+ All needs tweaking and balancing. Also when loads of dice are involved the player can 'take 3' from their dice and derive a total without rolling tens of dice at a time for easier tasks they should be able to complete without a test (hulk lifting a car, for example). A power is different in that it adds to any roll total rather than you having to choose which dice to use and drop the rest, like a skill. So with a power, you get to add everything to the dice. E.g. Man-Spider uses his combat sense to duck, dive, weave and avoid automatic fire from a goons gun and get him close enough to land a punch on the goons chin! Strength is used for melee attacks, Combat Sense adds in this case to his strength roll against the thugs skill roll for weapons + the weapon itself (which adds dice like a power does). The highest total wins. If the goon gets higher, Man-Spider might be riddled with bullets, if Man-Spider gets higher he dodges everything that comes his way and hopefully sends the goon to la-la land... I realise it's quite a departure from the T&T system, but a) that's a good thing given what's going on with OP b) A fantasy system where you get to add 5 dice for a sword isn't going to be compatible in a game with rocket propelled grenades, lasers from peoples eyes and nuclear bombs. A sword would add a couple of D6, a gun anywhere from 3-6, a dagger adds but 1D6. Maybe some weapons (and powers) also add a bonus like T&T 3D6+3 for example. Anyway, it's rough, cooked up on the fly with some bits, and needs putting out there to pull apart, chew on, and put back together, this time working. And it's a start. Over to you guys?
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 580
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Post by apn on Nov 10, 2010 9:45:14 GMT -5
Oh yeah, a bit more whilst I still have time to type:
Hero points can be used to roll another die and swap it out with one of the dice you rolled. In this way it *might* get rid of a 1 for you, or even give you another 6 (and therefore another bonus die) but that's down to luck of the dice.
e.g. Man-Spider leaps off a bridge to catch a falling child. The roll (Dexterity) goes badly with a few ones coming up. He spends hero points to roll more dice and chooses to replace the 1s with the numbers his hero point dice give him. A better result, he leaps, snags the child and spins a web ('any size, catches thieves, just like flies' apparently) to swing himself and the child to safety whilst an adoring public look on and cheer.
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kwll
4th Level Troll
Posts: 258
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Post by kwll on Nov 10, 2010 11:46:29 GMT -5
Two quick points: - What you have here is very interesting, and probably a good base of work. What I had in mind was a lot simpler, and a lot closer to the original game. Taken into account your initial comment on the OP debacle (in which I am completely un-interested), that probably makes sense. I find it a bit crunchy, but why not?
- Maybe unrelated, but maybe not: Khenn posted (verbatim) this in the walla today (this time, I am not hiding the text -- I hope this is not unapropriate):
I would comment that the game is going in completely new directions (whether willingly or not). But since he asks, maybe we can ask the Trollgod to include rules for... supers?
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Post by ProfGremlin on Nov 10, 2010 12:17:02 GMT -5
I would comment that the game is going in completely new directions (whether willingly or not). But since he asks, maybe we can ask the Trollgod to include rules for... supers? Hmmm... Sounds as if the C8E will be certainly introducing some new concepts. That said, I'd say, sure ask Ken to include some info on supers. These could be the demigods of the Old World (Hercules) or heroes of the New World (Hulk). Ideally, the same rules should be able to do either. Heck, there are a fair number of Old World beings in comics going toe-to-toe with New World heroes that there really shouldn't be any issue with it.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 580
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Post by apn on Nov 10, 2010 14:14:17 GMT -5
From the description it sounds like it will be a GURPs or Hero system style set of rules, maybe with different genre books. Depends on how much it departs from T&T as to whether it will be able to be called 'T&T' any more, as the rules haven't really changed much bar tweaks and the odd fix here and there over the years, or at least as far as I can tell.
As for a supers project, I was thinking along with the rolling dice thing some kind of fatigue stat to ensure there's a strategy or at least some management to the characters battering away at each other. Like the Marvel Universe game (the diceless version) you'd recover a certain amount of fatigue per round, and if you used all 13 of your strength points (I'm looking at you, Thor) you would use 13 fatigue. Some powers would have a lower fatigue cost, some a higher one, same with skills (lockpicking is less strenuous than rock climbing, for instance).
When the Hulk (strength 14) is battering away at the Thing (Strength 12) the thing would rely on his fighting skills to give him an edge, or at least keep pace with the green behemoth. Of course, the Hulk has a thicker hide than ol Benjys so he needs to stay smart, and pull off the odd trick or special move so he's not turned into a pile of gravel by the raging engine of destruction that is the Hulk. So whilst Hulk will use 14 dice for his attack, Thing will roll 12 dice and use his fighting skill of 4 dice that allows him to replace any lousy strength dice rolls (maybe by ditching the 1s in his strength rolls with better dice from the 4 extra he uses with fighting skill) , and hopefully keep him in the fight or winning.
Of course, the Hulk gets stronger the madder he gets, and Thing always had a way with words to get under his thick green hide, so he gets to add an extra free d6 every round of the fight thanks to adrenaline surge, and so on. With two heavily armoured opponents like this, a fight could go on forever so every 6 points that an attacker wins by will inflict at least 1 point of spite damage, regardless of armour, with a choice (from the winner of the combat) of whether to reduce the opponents fatigue or health score with the damage they cause.
That's just off the top of my head, am sure someone will find glaring holes. I think that's what I'm after really - someone to point stuff out, suggest easier better ways of doing stuff then writing up a chapter, or a few pages, and posting them up for editing and adding to etc, getting everyone to chip in with a section for the game and so on, even if its character write ups, a background/history, various crime organisations, legendary heroes and groups, power descriptions and so on, but the mechanics, for me would need sorting out first.
These are just my ramblings, and not in any way a desire to take over a group project (it would never be finished if left up to me on my own. I have a long history of starting and not finishing game projects).
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Post by ProfGremlin on Nov 10, 2010 15:38:13 GMT -5
(lockpicking is less strenuous than rock climbing, for instance). Not to be confused with Rock Picking or Lock Climbing ... various crime organisations... Ninja Burger ;D
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dekh
5th Level Troll
dekh by Grumlahk
Posts: 622
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Post by dekh on Nov 11, 2010 5:29:59 GMT -5
Normal people have 2D6 (or, a score of 2) on their stats, heroes have 3D6 (a score of 3) and superhumans have higher than 3. That is very neat. I like it. Hmmm, perhaps having a skill at something could just add extra dice depending on skill level rather than replace dice. Simplify and speed up mechanics always good. A bad guys skills could go some way towards offsetting a super's powers. In a punch up... Super: Str 6 Dex 4 speed 4 Total dice 14. Crim: Str 4 dex 3 Spd 2 Brawling 2 Total dice 11 OK the super has the edge but both get to make a satisfying rattle as the dice hit the table. Just a thought.
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Post by zanshin on Nov 11, 2010 5:54:13 GMT -5
Thats very like the West End Games star wars system, which I like. Good idea, integrates well with the T&T system.
That way you could have power dice , and describe the stunt in such a way as to bring the optimal power to play.
I would make the cost of increasing the number of dice progress in a geometrical fashion to encourage a variety of powers rather than always using the same one.
Hulk ,for example, could be Mighty , Supertough and Raging as his powers (Raging making him less resistant to mind control, maybe sometimes used in combination with Mighty to break free of bonds etc.
I like.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 580
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Post by apn on Nov 11, 2010 6:26:52 GMT -5
I think the thing is with skills is that both supers and non supers can be skilled, so making them as powerful as powers in that respect would make a powered person even more powerful, and upset the balance. I do get where you're coming from with the suggestion though Dekh, and it does simplify things. Zanshin - are you talking about the DC Universe game? I had that once upon a time, but couldn't get on with it (think it used dice with superman and darkseid on the faces?) but will be the first to admit I never gave it a fair crack of the whip. I think we might all be able to agree on this - powers should be more than skills. More powerful, have better and more varied effects and so on. It's why we play supers games rather than have everyone run about doing acrobatics and flinging batarangs and firing trick arrows and so on. Within reason, we all could do that anyway, albeit not as good as The Batman or Green Arrow. What we can't do is fly, blast energy from our eyes or toss cars, and that's the main attraction (for me at least) of a supers game. How about this: A level of skill adds 1d6 A level of power adds 2d6 (heck, maybe 3? we need to figure out balance). So Hulks Mighty level 6 adds 12 dice to Bruce Banners strength of 2. Captain Americas martial arts level 9 adds 9 dice to his strength of 3. Taking on the Hulk is still a bad idea, but without his skill it would be suicidal. I see as well the suggestion of adding str, dex and speed (or perhaps luck?) for combat. My only reservation to that had been not having to roll mountains of D6, but that's what T&T is about anyway. With the exploding dice (or multiple results of the same dice roll) you could end up getting a score in the hundreds... however, this IS a hero game, so the numbers should be higher anyway. Food for thought. If we can agree on a basic system, the stats to use, task resolution and basic combat, I think we have something to start with and will write it up (unless someone else wants to do it - I don't want to derail anyone else's enthusiasm and besides, sharing the work out is good ) Other chapters required in a basic set of rules (add more if I missed them?): Character Creation Powers Skills Character creation example Combat Basic Gadget rules and Wealth Background/History of a fictional city/cities Rosters of existing (established) heroes and villains A sample adventure GMs section with difficulties and any charts (e.g. for lifting) Might look like a lot, but we're talking a page or 3 of writing in most respects. Skills and powers would take up the most pages, but only in the way every game has a spell list or ability list or whatever. I have the Marvel 'ultimate powers' book to hand for reference too, so picking and choosing powers, then writing them up, wouldn't be a massive chore.
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