kwll
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 248
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Post by kwll on Nov 11, 2010 18:05:21 GMT -5
Re-reading your dice mechanic proposal, I noticed that it is very (very) similar to the one used in the game SUPERS! -- was it on purpose? The matching of dice in the pool reminds me of the One Roll Engine, somehow. And the exploding die rings like BASH (which uses a dice mechanic surprisingly similar to T&T saving rolls...). Again, I find your overall idea good, if a little bit on the crunchy side of things. I am also philosophically against re-rolls (or extra dice), which slow down and complicate a little what should be a simple game. Now, granted, that remark might not apply to PbP games! To remain closer to T&T, why not keep the dice pool and target number mechanic, and simply trigger stunts/special effects/critical successes/"spite" or "stun" damage with the number of 6's rolled? Still borrowing ideas from T&T, the character level progression could be kept, simply to use the "level adds to saving roll" rule. This could be triggered using Hero Points, for example, to put a limit on the number of times this could be used in a game. Just a few thoughts, which might or (more probably) might not be of interest...
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 11, 2010 23:16:54 GMT -5
Heh, I own Supers!, BASH UE and Wild Talents and haven't read any of them yet. The 'Choose best dice' mechanic sort of comes from Barbarians of Lemuria. I make make no claims for any of it being original! More like a 'take a good bit from this game, then one from this, and here, a bit of this too' sort of mish mash.
Faster is better, as is less complex, so I'm all for that which speeds up the game. I just wanted some kind of dice mechanic that would even the odds every now and again instead of those with the highest dice total to roll more or less winning every contest on average. I guess that's where Hero Points could come in - spend them to get extra dice, and fatigue - you can't spend the dice if your guy is dead on his/her feet.
I think you're right - borrow or modify mechanics from T&T first and foremost (I don't think many of the T&T mechanics would work in a supers game without tweaking or changing drastically in some cases) then look to borrow others as reqd.
I'll also look at those games mentioned. Come to think of it, wasn't Wild Talents based on the old D6 Star Wars engine? Another one I'll have to look up sometime...
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 11, 2010 23:29:49 GMT -5
Oh, and the proposed 'fatigue' score would be similar to Wiz, save the costs applies to anything strenuous and recovers every round by a certain amount. It is a bit more book keeping, but I think would make the game more interesting from the point of view that a combatants might decide to go all out, or stay on the defensive to soak up a foes blows, then strike, or try to outlast them (as just about anyone vs the Hulk over the years has done - you won't beat the guy in a round no matter how hard you try)
As for the stunt/special effect/critical etc, I suppose the lower the level in that, the better.
For example, Captain America has a stunt with his shield where it bounces off walls and comes back to his hand. At the start of his career he'd have spent a lot of time sighing and running after it (Shield Stunt:10 meaning he needed ten 6s to trigger it). Nowadays he's much better at it, so the Shield Stunt:3 means he only needs three 6s to see the thing rebound crazily about and come back to his hand.
That the sort of thing you're getting at, or a different way of doing stuff?
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kwll
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 248
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Post by kwll on Nov 12, 2010 4:49:56 GMT -5
Heh, I own Supers!, BASH UE and Wild Talents and haven't read any of them yet. The 'Choose best dice' mechanic sort of comes from Barbarians of Lemuria. I make make no claims for any of it being original! More like a 'take a good bit from this game, then one from this, and here, a bit of this too' sort of mish mash. Well, SUPERS! and Barbarians of Lemuria are both written by the same guy, and are both highly praised, so I guess it is good inspiration! Without being a complete rules junky, I also find it inspiring to read other games' mechanics. I put my hand on SUPERS!, BASH, DCA, MSH (the original one) and ICONS recently, and I just finished to read the later. Very interesting, even though it is going in a completely different direction mechanics wise, being FATE based and all. Aspects and Determination might be interesting concepts to explore, though. Yeah, well, I did not put much thought in it, but I was thinking: the more dice I have, the more likely I am to pull stunts. But your idea seems a lot better: that's a good way to implement character advancement (that and maybe the leveling rule I briefly evoked in my last post? Or not). A lot better than unendingly increasing the number of dice rolled!
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Post by ProfGremlin on Nov 12, 2010 13:31:11 GMT -5
I'll admit that I'm not following all the rules suggestions as some of the references to other games completely passes me by. What I'm gleaning here, though, is that there is some desire to have a dice pool that can be added periodically, at the players whim, to skill rolls. I recall from a 7th Sea game I was in several years ago that it had a dice pool mechanic called Drama Dice. I don't recall the particulars of the mechanic as it was multifaceted but I do remember that you could elect to add a die to your roll, before you made the roll, to increase your chance of success. You earned Drama Dice through role-play and your pool would reset at the beginning of every session. I think you started with a base number of five dice. For a Supers game, you could simply have a dice pool, call them Stunt Dice or something, based on the characters level. So, a first level character would have one SD in their pool whereas a third level character would have three SD's in theirs and so on. They can earn extra dice in play but once they're spent that session they're spent. The pool resets at the beginning of the next session. Unspent dice are simply lost. This could encourage over-the-top stunt attempts by the players resulting in more dramatic play with the actual chance that a hero really could pull off some crazy hail-mary stunt.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 12, 2010 18:31:14 GMT -5
I've started to write a little bit, albeit an introduction to roleplaying and a play example right now. If we can nail down a few basics of the game mechanics (I like the ideas that are coming in, just need to prune through and sort out how they work with each other) we can start to add various chapters. I can't see this being any kind of inch thick 'bullet stopper' game book, and it doesn't need to be. Over the weekend I'll see if I can write some more and submit it to any who want to contribute/change stuff.
What stats are needed?
Is everyone ok with a fatigue score (replacing Wiz and payable for any strenuous action in combat that uses dice) and a Health score? I was thinking Con x a number (10 I think, but need to do maths to make sure it's not too much, not too little) whilst fatigue is Con x 5 (again, maths need sorting) and recovery is Con per round. So if Hulk has 10 Con, he has 50 Fatigue points and recovers 10/round. In effect he could use 10 dice (of Strength, or anything else) in a round and not lose any Fatigue points. If he uses more than 10 his fatigue score will drop.
Everyone ok with that? (For me, I'd like to see some kind of resource management - that gives the player total control over how hard, or otherwise, their character fights, so it's not all down to the dice)
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kwll
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 248
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Post by kwll on Nov 13, 2010 2:18:24 GMT -5
Sure, I see no problem with that. My only concern is to understand what is the range of possible values for attributes (CON or otherwise). Is it going to be a number or dice pool, and what is the meaning of each value?
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 14, 2010 8:45:37 GMT -5
Well, as mentioned, normal people would have a score of 2, heroes would have 3, superheroes 3+ Or to put it another way: (Yeah, I know the numbers are a bit wonky, I was simply playing about with a few things and the numbers are off the top of my head - in a rush because I'm going to *&^&ing work again *sigh* ) The Rank is the number of dice you roll. The Difficulty numbers definitely need tweaking, as do the ranks, but this is kind of what I'm getting at. If Spiderman had a strength of 8, he could (with a very good roll) scrape into the low Amazing range, but would easily on average toss 1000lbs or so (Excellent range) without effort. Rolling a 6 on a die in those circumstances should have some kind of bonus, if not bonus die, I reckon. An extra +1 to the total result, so if he rolled 4 sixes, that would give +4 overall? I dunno. The temptation is make it as little crunch as possible, but still come up with a system that means Spiderman, Hulk etc can lift what they should be able (and move as fast, and think as well etc) without having to roll 5s and 6s on all the dice for their Saving throws. Got more ideas in there but need to rush off, work calls. *nnngh*
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 14, 2010 8:49:38 GMT -5
Looking a the table, a character should be able to, on average, succeed at something around 2-3 levels lower (So Incredible finds Excellent easy, Monstrous finds Remarkable-Incredible tasks easy and so on). Needs tweaking, playing about with. Open to all suggestions, and an easier way of doing things, but so far I think we are roughly on the right track. Need to rush now, gonna be laaaaattttteeee!
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kwll
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 248
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Post by kwll on Nov 15, 2010 1:26:10 GMT -5
In your table, the difficulty numbers do not always equal the average value of 'rank x d6'. Is that on purpose?
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 15, 2010 10:58:45 GMT -5
The values need to be worked out properly. As you say, they don't add up right (average being 3.5 per die, so typical would be 7 rather than 5-8) but I put that range in for example.
e.g. A normal person dead lifting a weight of 200lbs would have to roll 7 to lift it on 2D6. If the object is really hard to grab onto, it might go up to 8. If the object is specifically designed to be lifted (a set of bar bells for instance) it might drop down to 6.
Need to work it out, but the range is a guide, rather than a definitive. Do something in the driving wind and rain for example, and expect it to be higher up in the difficulty range as you struggle against the elements.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 15, 2010 14:30:17 GMT -5
I've started to write down some of the ideas into a rough draft document. Bear with me - I went with my original 'roll a 6 and add a bonus die' idea but am happy to switch to another mechanic if it's easier and faster to play. I was literally writing from memory and rattling stuff off for about an hour or so, then spat it out into a PDF for printing off and reading/ripping to bits/amending.
<<Link removed to continue writing/tweaking rules off board>>
I'm NOT trying to 'take charge' or railroad or anything else to make the project my own - I just figured I'd put something down and get a start on. If we are to go somewhere with this, and actually finish the darn thing, we need to start somewhere, so I knocked that out. See what you think, and I'll slip into something more comfortable - like a flame retardent suit and see what happens next.
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kwll
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 248
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Post by kwll on Nov 16, 2010 2:08:32 GMT -5
I did not read the document (yet), but to answer a few points made earlier in the thread (just throwing ideas at the wall to check what sticks here): - As a Fatigue score, are you referring to a system as used in M&M? I am not against it, on the contrary, but why not have a dedicated stat for it (like WIZ in the original game)? Maybe we could use a Power stat, like in BRP?
- Concerning the difficulty numbers, I still have... difficulties to wrap my head around them. Why are the lower end of some ranges higher than the average roll? And why not define a series of discreet numbers for ranks and target numbers, and rule that easier actions should target lower ranks, and harder actions should target higher ranks?
- Concerning "spite results", I am still unsure how to use them: as a bonus to the final score, or as trigger for some stunts, or both, or leave it to role playing... or something completely different! In combat, things could be closer to how they are in T&T.
- Instead of using a "level" number to add in some instances (heroic action) to a roll to enhance its result, as with T&T's SRs, I was thinking that a pool of hero point (M&M) or competency dice (SUPERS!) might be more appropriate. Hero points/dice would be earned by experience as a replacement of APs.
This is just off the top of my head. I will try to read the doc today.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Nov 16, 2010 4:16:52 GMT -5
- As a Fatigue score, are you referring to a system as used in M&M? I am not against it, on the contrary, but why not have a dedicated stat for it (like WIZ in the original game)? Maybe we could use a Power stat, like in BRP?
Not sure about the system in M&M, I was more used to using the system in the Marvel Universe RPG. It acts the same as WIZ, save that anything which requires considerable effort (walking down the street, no fatigue cost, running and being chased by 10 ninja and carrying an unconscious damsel in distress, most definitely yes) also reduces fatigue. Superpowers also use fatigue, but in the write up I posted skills do not use fatigue. They add extra dice, and are free dice (no fatigue point cost save that which you use from your stat, like Dex or Str). To counter that, I was going to give more bang for buck with powers, but they do cost fatigue to use. e.g. martial arts level 2 would be free to use and add 2 extra dice in combat. Energy blast level 3 would give up to 6 extra dice in combat, but to use it you would need to pay a fatigue cost of 1 point per die rolled.
- Concerning the difficulty numbers, I still have... difficulties to wrap my head around them. Why are the lower end of some ranges higher than the average roll? And why not define a series of discreet numbers for ranks and target numbers, and rule that easier actions should target lower ranks, and harder actions should target higher ranks?
Changed them. They are now fixed, base numbers and I went off the original Marvel game. Why that game? Because it was easy to learn, and whilst DC Heroes was by far my favourite it included tables and we all know they send players running unless they are willing to find out how things work with them. Now, if you want to perform a Remarkable task, something beyond the range of the most accomplished Olympian, you need to roll 30. To perform a Good task, something a professional like a cop or soldier might manage, you need to roll 10. To perform an Unearthly task, which only the mightiest of Superhumans might succeed at, you need to roll 100. Best o luck with that, mind.
- Concerning "spite results", I am still unsure how to use them: as a bonus to the final score, or as trigger for some stunts, or both, or leave it to role playing... or something completely different! In combat, things could be closer to how they are in T&T.
I went to the bonus die mechanic - roll a 6, get a free extra die to roll. Roll a 1, it takes one of those (if you have any) dice away. I do also like the 'trigger' - maybe in power descriptions there could be power stunts that are triggered by the number of 6s you roll. e.g.
Flame Blast Range: 20m Fatigue Cost: 1 per die Effect: The character can blast searing flames from their hands, eyes, or anywhere else they choose. Combustibles will set on fire, everything else will suffer damage. Game Mechanic: Use in missile combat, add dice to your attack. Stunts: Rolling a number of 6s brings the additional benefits of:
Three 6s : The flame will melt through non critical metal objects, like a steel door. It won't affect armour or weapons in any special way.
Five 6s: Whatever is struck will set on fire, and cause an extra 2D6/round of damage to the objects health. This has the potential of killing someone.
Ten 6s: Going Nova - the character emits so much heat and light they appear to 'go Nova' like a sun. Everything within 100m is attacked by the characters dice roll. Normal items melt and burst into flames, and the area will look (afterwards) like a bomb has hit it with a 50m deep crater around the character if they were stood on the floor. It also removes the characters remaining fatigue points, leaving them temporarily exhausted.
That's off the top of my head, but is that the kind of thing you've been getting at? Roll a certain number of 6s and trigger a special effect?
[/i] [/li][li] Instead of using a "level" number to add in some instances (heroic action) to a roll to enhance its result, as with T&T's SRs, I was thinking that a pool of hero point (M&M) or competency dice (SUPERS!) might be more appropriate. Hero points/dice would be earned by experience as a replacement of APs. [/li][/ul] Added hero points. Using a hero point allows you to reroll one of the dice you just rolled, but you must keep the new result.There would be balancing required between powers and skills with this, because skills would now be minimum effort (you just have to pay for however many stat dice you use, and you can add the skill dice for free) so you can have the martial artist in Matrix stood there checking his nails with one hand and battling off a ninja with the other hand using minimum effort if they are skilled enough. Powers cost fatigue but have a wider range (skills for instance, won't let you fly or blast energy, or see through walls) than skills and give double the number of dice you can potentially use (so level 4 skills gives 4 free dice, level 4 power gives up to 8 dice which you pay fatigue to use). Still pondering on whether powers should give 2 or 3 dice per level. e.g. Man-Spider battles a Ninja. The Ninja attacked with strength and intelligence (2 dice of each, using 4 fatigue) and has martial arts (level 2) which give 2 free dice. He has 6 dice in his attack. Man-Spider uses 5 of his 7 strength dice, and 3 of his luck dice for a total of 8 dice in his attack. He also uses his combat sense power, that allows him to dodge more effectively and know when to strike. He uses 3 dice of that for another 3 fatigue. His total attack of 11 dice (for a cost of 11 fatigue) should beat the ninjas attack of 6 dice (for a cost of 4 fatigue). He expended more effort, but he's a superhuman, and a tough guy, he can take it. Man-Spiders total is 41, with 4 extra bonus dice after 1s and 6s are counted. They add an extra 15 points for a total of 56.
The Ninja gets a total of 20 and one extra bonus die for a total of 23.
The difference in the scores (33 points) is deducted from the Ninjas health and is, in this case, enough to send the Ninja flying to land in a heap.
Again, off the top of my head but it keeps some of the T&T flexibility and mechanics but most importantly is fast. You can use an on line dice roller and count the 6s and 1s with a glance to see how many extra dice you get to roll. Anyhow, over to you
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kwll
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 248
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Post by kwll on Nov 17, 2010 2:54:00 GMT -5
Well, I had a quick look at the rules as written (no time to read in detail), and I would say this is a good basis for discussion! I find it good, but it seems that we are not attracted by the same mechanics. Which is not bad in itself, since it allows for a good exchange of ideas. To the point: - Fatigue: now I understand better what you mean by it. Fatigue in M&M is slightly different, since it is only used when a hero wants to perform an extraordinarily exerting effort (lift something which you wouldn't be able to on average with your strength level, for example). I must say that I prefer this last approach, since there is a lot less bookkeeping. Resource management is also usually used at this level in dice-less games. Now that is debatable...
- Rank table: I like the new table a lot better. Now FASERIP MSH used a d100, if I remember well, whereas we use d6's. That's not very important, but numbers might have to be tweaked a little. What I like, though, is that for a target number of 100, a character of the same rank would have to throw around 30 dice. That sounds about right.
- Spite: Yeah, I think you got the idea pretty well, even if I am a little uncomfortable with the example you took. For me, the types of Fire Blasts you describe are different in intensity, so in my mind the Fatigue rule would be more appropriate to simulate the effort needed to go to higher levels. What I was thinking was more like clever ways to use your powers / skills, showing a higher level of mastery. So for example controlling the shape of your fire blast (fire balls? Dragon shaped blast? Very precisely aimed blast?) Not all might be easily described in the rules, and some aspects might simply be role played IC, I think. Also, failing a roll and still obtaining spites might trigger some benefit. All this is debatable, I concede, but do you see what I am getting at?
Also, I am not very comfortable with re-rolls. Why not have spites add a fixed number to your result? Or leave the choice between increasing the final roll, and pulling potential stunts?
- Hero points: As explained before, I am generally against re-rolls, which tend to slow down and complicate things in some cases. Now that might very well be a personal prejudice. And as much as it is the case in M&M, re-rolls might be one of the options offered when using Hero Points among others. What I am thinking for other options are:
- Roll additional dice: add dice to the pool to obtain a better result (either by adding them or taking the best result among them for the original pool number of dice -- the two options could be available at different costs).
- Add a fixed number: instead of dice, add a fixed number (say 3 per hero point) to a roll to obtain a better result. This is closer to the spirit of the SR rules in T&T.
- Expand the story: make it so that a particular item which would be useful for the situation at hand is around when the hero needs it, for example. Would have to be closely controlled by the GM, and might be replaced by a Luck roll. Need more thought, obviously...
- Others?
Again, I am just throwing ideas according to what I know and where I am leaning to. The points I am trying to make is that the rules light(er) super games I have read recently usually have a low bookkeeping level, and it might be good to offer different options to cater with different styles of play. Now a rules light game might not be the target we are aiming at, and options might not be what we want! Also, I am not obsessed by mimicking M&M, but it seems to be the most successful supers game I have ever seen, and obviously nailed a few things down pretty well, so I thought it is as good as any an inspiration. FASERIP MSH is good also, since most successful supers game seem to have been inspired by it!
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