trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 381
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Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 12, 2023 5:45:23 GMT -5
You know zanshin that you can count on The TavernMasters to host the new iteration of "Trollszine" AND I, personally, am up for any writing/editing/illustrating work that may be required of me. What I am incapable of doing is the layout work that quoghmyre always did with such aplomb I have no doubt that Ken and Steve will be happy to support our endeavours Perhaps we should run a competition for the renaming? How about just plain Monsterzine? Or Tunnels & Monsterzine? Or how about DAROzine? Well monsters inc is allready taken, otherwise that's a good one. What about Monsters! Monsters?
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trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 381
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Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 12, 2023 5:49:13 GMT -5
rashathetimid is correct nebless , there is not much difference between the two games. If you're a 5th edition accolyte, there's even less to differentiate them Mechanically I agree (to the point where I hope we aren't going to see an IP wrangle somewhere down the track); conceptually there is something "different" about being a monster, which may lead to the players having a different kind of experience. (I'm put in mind of Paddy Griffith's World War 2 RPG of many years ago where each PC had different objectives... some of which might include "looking busy" without ever getting in a fight.) I can see why some people won't be comfortable with playing monsters, though it's a diverse world... maybe Gandalf should have made more effort to understand Saruman's point of view... I only have the old version of Monsters! Monsters! But i find it to be a litle bit like taking vacation from t&t; you know lets get an outlet for our destrucive tendencies and paly mosnters that plunder, pillage and more. But I do think that Monsters! Monsters! Can be more than. An system thea really encourage you to play whatever character, in any way you like.
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 12, 2023 6:19:01 GMT -5
M!M! rules are just a basic form of T&T.The more complexed you make M!M!, the more it will look like T&T and then it is stupid law suits, etc... I presume folks enjoy T&T for what it is. The world the myth, the legends.. Or dare I say it Trollworld... But, that was not (though there had been some) Trollszine's main focus. The people that create T&T material, provided it for many different GM create worlds.So, it just the rules we are adapting. So, instead of adapting T&T. We will be adapting M!M! But to such a state, that they look like T&T again?What got me for T&T is the Weapons and Armour. I just love it. I also loved the mystical world of Trollworld, yet never got any information on it till last year and in over 40 years of gameplay (on and off) with T&T, that is a long time but it was the essence of Trollworld that got me. Khazan, Khosht and the mixture of different Kin as I played the solos. Where AD&D was more medieval in focus (George and the Dragon, noble quests), T&T were rogues out for wealth and not so much glory. I enjoy a game with Elves, Dwarves, etc. I not a big fan of playing Trolls and Goblins...Now what to do?I mention to Sid before about the Tavernmaster's world. They must have one and a growing map (and life) of the world itself... Does it have a name. Could we evolve the Zine around that world. Giving people a focus that they can relate to?Still, the zine would develop M!M! rules and folks are going to offer what. More complexed weaponry and armour. I just think is will eventually duplicate T&T. It a catch 22, no way oot, we are DOOM, I tell ya DOOMMED!!!What we are attempting to decide is:We use M!M! for our future presentation of this Forum? The Zine and any private stuff we create for public use (free or otherwise). Then in the privacy of our own home, convert back to T&T rules and format. Well That was my Babbling Moment of Hysteria:But the clouds are dispersing and I am feeling MUCH calmer now, thanks. Concerning K'Neuzine:I would love to help, but I constantly working at projects. I stop one, I instantly start another... (Gee, even the garden, etc.) My Conan forum and the likes of finishing that Zombie Rising 1989. I was editing it last night (I stopped to read it and enjoy it and saw four errors instead, agh!). I can (as Houndle stated) offer stuff I create. I got about 6 different solo adventures I working at/in/on my laptop, but we need (or I need) to know the difference (the thin bloody redline) between what is M!M! and what is T&T? For Example: if I convert Buffalo Castle to just another Dungeon on another make-believe world and using the words M!M! in title. I not even bother using T&T. I presume people know what it is I making and just do not add it... I format PDFs, but what of pictures (which one can be used and which are inappropriate. Using other peoples' stuff without permission is another Suey-thing). My layout is from left to right, I hate columns... I could help if it had time, but not if it becomes a burden. Have to type it as it is? How much work did Quogmyre put into Zine. Hours, days, WEEKS?Just call it a need to know. Wheew, that exasperating... Okay, no more babble... Waits patiently for reply...BTW: I actually enjoyed Sid's idea of Trollsterzine! Montrolzine... Monster-Trollzine
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Post by houndle on Apr 12, 2023 6:55:12 GMT -5
Trollworld to me is interesting but ultimately non-essential in terms of actual game play.
(Strictly speaking the preposterous Calamitus Castle is located near Brokenbridge on the island of Vectisinsula which could be anywhere... Anyone is welcome to use that, although I need to re-draw the map as I made a small boo-boo with some recent additions.)
As for "official" backgrounds, Zimrala is a big continent which offers the chance for a reset (starting from a broadly ancient Egyptian background so should already diverge from medievalism). It would be interesting to see a weapon list based on the ancient world as opposed to T&T which is rather a mix and match from a lot of different cultures.
Maybe the first issue of the Zine could capture some creative ideas about the things which (should) make M!M! different, e.g. new settings, monster-friendly plot hooks, equipment rules which fit the M!M! setting (the rules state that money is not such a thing as the average monster can't just buy stuff at the corner shop)(some of the above dependant on when v3.0 might be ready of course)(though indications are the Deluxe M!M! will not be a thing, which presumably leaves design space for other creators, whether professional or amateur)?
Ideally at least some content should be sufficiently generic to be usable with T&T or indeed whatever other RPGs are out there.
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darrght
4th Level Troll
Wow, I'm a 4th Level Troll!
Posts: 445
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Post by darrght on Apr 12, 2023 8:11:25 GMT -5
Monsterzine appeals, Monsterzine! even more I think anything alluding to others worlds (Zimrala etc) is probably best avoided in the title, but would be overjoyed to have content set there, or any leopard based continent. Darrghts generous offer would of course be snapped up by me. As houndle wisely said, being a monster can be a matter of perspective - certainly in classic Trollworld places like Khazan were like a less cuddly Zootopia (Zootropolis in the UK). Given that you are THE TROLL zanshin when it comes to all things Trollszine, I vote that the ongoing fan-based quest for roleplaying perfection born here at Vin's Trollbridge, will henceforth and for all time; unless we decide to change it, be known as Monsterzine!
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 12, 2023 8:55:10 GMT -5
Trollworld to me is interesting but ultimately non-essential in terms of actual game play. (Strictly speaking the preposterous Calamitus Castle is located near Brokenbridge on the island of Vectisinsula which could be anywhere... Anyone is welcome to use that, although I need to re-draw the map as I made a small boo-boo with some recent additions.) As for "official" backgrounds, Zimrala is a big continent which offers the chance for a reset (starting from a broadly ancient Egyptian background so should already diverge from medievalism). It would be interesting to see a weapon list based on the ancient world as opposed to T&T which is rather a mix and match from a lot of different cultures. Maybe the first issue of the Zine could capture some creative ideas about the things which (should) make M!M! different, e.g. new settings, monster-friendly plot hooks, equipment rules which fit the M!M! setting (the rules state that money is not such a thing as the average monster can't just buy stuff at the corner shop)(some of the above dependant on when v3.0 might be ready of course)(though indications are the Deluxe M!M! will not be a thing, which presumably leaves design space for other creators, whether professional or amateur)? Ideally at least some content should be sufficiently generic to be usable with T&T or indeed whatever other RPGs are out there. I enjoy the theory of older weaponry and I was not, and am not a big fan of muskets, etc. But with Zimrala for example. I not (though I think Egyptian history is intriguing) a big fan of it, for a Fantasy game... I still, though enjoying the Arabian night format, but still focused on green forest (temperate) full of Elves, craggy mountain full of Dwarves and gentle hillside, green grassed pastured fields with Hobbit homes, hidden in the pleasant vales, and of course bunny rabbits! That not bunny rabbits with Thompson submachine guns, though! The M!M! are rules to use for any system, not just for a monster delver... So, to incorporate Elves Dwarves, Leprechaun without it looking like T&T is impossible...
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tp
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 237
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Post by tp on Apr 12, 2023 9:59:25 GMT -5
Monsterzine gets my vote, it implies both a continuation from Trollzine and a link to Monsters! Monsters!
Personally I think the philosophical differences between T&T and M!M! are inconsequential. Pretty much any article for the existing Trollszines could be played with M!M! rules. I see no problem with including stats for humans, dwarfs, elves etc, they are perfectly capable of being evil, and were included in first ed M!M! (I think). The differences between the two games are no greater than the differences between two sets of house rules (and everyone plays with house rules).
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trolletgunnar
4th Level Troll
A Swedish player who holds the Tunnels and trolls banner high.
Posts: 381
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Post by trolletgunnar on Apr 12, 2023 10:17:17 GMT -5
The thing a miss the most in Monster! Monsters! is the Monster rating; it is such an elegant way to come up with opponents on the fly.
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viva
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 111
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Post by viva on Apr 12, 2023 11:46:03 GMT -5
Random thoughts from the peanut gallery of non-contributors...
Trolls are monsters so not certain there is a need to change the name. And while the T&T future doesnt look very inclusive not sure you should move away before you actually have to move in such a different direction.
As an avid collector and appreciator of T&T/MM content I think its more impressive and enticing for a magazine to keep going (name and issue number-wise) rather than re-start. Though I guess name change doesn't have to re-start numbering, either.
If the name does change I think that, instead of MonsterZine, MonstersZine seems more consistent with TrollsZine and Monsters!Monsters!.
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Post by houndle on Apr 12, 2023 12:18:27 GMT -5
The thing a miss the most in Monster! Monsters! is the Monster rating; it is such an elegant way to come up with opponents on the fly. Never seen the first edition, but in M!M! 2.x the "Mankind Rating" is basically the same thing except for a tiny difference in the calculation. NPCs can still be given a MR if you want. It's also why I proposed handling warships abstractly by means of a "Maritime Rating"... or MR for short...
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Post by houndle on Apr 12, 2023 12:29:05 GMT -5
Random thoughts from the peanut gallery of non-contributors... Trolls are monsters so not certain there is a need to change the name. And while the T&T future doesnt look very inclusive not sure you should move away before you actually have to move in such a different direction. As an avid collector and appreciator of T&T/MM content I think its more impressive and enticing for a magazine to keep going (name and issue number-wise) rather than re-start. Though I guess name change doesn't have to re-start numbering, either. If the name does change I think that, instead of MonsterZine, MonstersZine seems more consistent with TrollsZine and Monsters!Monsters!. My One Big Worry is that the active T&T community is relatively small, and there is a risk of it becoming further fragmented. Not just a question of the Zine I know, but for me it's partly about visibility to the outside world. Ideally I'd like a name which pops to the top when someone does a search on DriveThru or wherever... anyone know how their search engine works? I imagine "monster" is a generic term which might throw up a lot of hits.
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mosker
5th Level Troll
Posts: 532
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Post by mosker on Apr 12, 2023 22:22:17 GMT -5
And while the T&T future doesnt look very inclusive not sure you should move away before you actually have to move in such a different direction. Thank you viva . I've been chanting Audience? Audience! Audience? since this thread began. Three semi-tangentially related points: 1. My strongest belief about Trollszine is that the key to its quality was the round-robin assignment of articles/contributors with other contributors acting as editors.* It meant nobody up top was overburdened and there was the potential for focused back and forth until the pieces really worked. How I was helped was able to help others often surpassed the satisfaction of getting work into the hands of the readers. Whatever happens, I hope that system continues. 2. Reading through Trollszine issues has been revelatory in terms of what was written by who and when. Especially when the state of the brands is so unsure (T&T obviously, but M!M! too--could the 3rd parties really help it take off, or will the engine driving the game be primarily once or twice a year kickstarters from the top?)--reading the editorials, table of contents, contributor lists (and their bios are relevatory as well) might provide some historical perspective and help everyone** hoping to be a part of path forward figure out what's known and unknown about their own time, creative, and --yes--emotional investment in the game and the future zine. 3. Harkening back to the email T&T newsletter I ran (enlisting Ken for star power and subscriptions) I'm curious: Besides the Trollbridge, where else are you seeing M!M! (and T&T too) news and content? Steve's KS updates? One of the two Facebook groups (are there more? There's a ton of overlap...)? Somewhere else? Anyone ever see the games run at conventions? ( And speaking of the newsletter, does anyone remember it? Of those, anyone subscribe--and actually open the emails, let alone read the content?)David *I will also argue that many of us being "raised" on Sorceror's Apprentice was a really good thing. (Zod I hope that wasn't primarily a stateside publication. I prize my issues more than anything in my RPG collection) **I will not go all caps or big fonts
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Post by zanshin on Apr 13, 2023 1:41:54 GMT -5
Monsterzine appeals, Monsterzine! even more I think anything alluding to others worlds (Zimrala etc) is probably best avoided in the title, but would be overjoyed to have content set there, or any leopard based continent. Darrghts generous offer would of course be snapped up by me. As houndle wisely said, being a monster can be a matter of perspective - certainly in classic Trollworld places like Khazan were like a less cuddly Zootopia (Zootropolis in the UK). Given that you are THE TROLL zanshin when it comes to all things Trollszine, I vote that the ongoing fan-based quest for roleplaying perfection born here at Vin's Trollbridge, will henceforth and for all time; unless we decide to change it, be known as Monsterzine! I love the 'henceforth and for all time, unless we decide to change it'
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Post by nialldubh on Apr 13, 2023 5:05:22 GMT -5
Monsterzine gets my vote, it implies both a continuation from Trollzine and a link to Monsters! Monsters! Personally I think the philosophical differences between T&T and M!M! are inconsequential. Pretty much any article for the existing Trollszines could be played with M!M! rules. I see no problem with including stats for humans, dwarfs, elves etc, they are perfectly capable of being evil, and were included in first ed M!M! (I think). The differences between the two games are no greater than the differences between two sets of house rules (and everyone plays with house rules). Yes, I agree. Apart from Talents which in theory is stunting without a +3 modifier, etc. I still think weapons and armour is poorly, plus equipment (this is because new folk will buy product and like me, want more precise details). I also think buying stuff in gold, is way too much (but I pass with that one). Clarification on spells, costs, etc. As there is no Wizards, Rogues, Warriors, etc... It has lost format, and Good Kin. Those again who are veered from or have never encountered T&T will only regard it (Game M!M!) as a Monster game. Zimrala has Moon Elves, so not necessary every monster in a Monster Manual needs to be evil. Even monsters need enemies? Just how much freedom does the M!M! team have.Steve states That Classes are to be added to Zimrala. Perhaps Sarah Newton will do the same (and other creators in future)... trollbridge.proboards.com/post/65315/threadAgain this depends on how much freedom they have with M!M! From my perspective if some person used M!M! rules and created a concept similar to T&T. Then is that acceptable, I cannot image it would be? Also mention of New Weapons, Spells, Character Types (again) etc:trollbridge.proboards.com/post/65207/threadI trying to find post, but too many, but even Steve stated that 'Expanding M!M! rules to match T&T and it just becomes same game,' hence their departure to a different world and concept?
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Post by houndle on Apr 13, 2023 6:49:00 GMT -5
I still think weapons and armour is poorly, plus equipment (this is because new folk will buy product and like me, want more precise details). I also think buying stuff in gold, is way too much (but I pass with that one). I suppose you could argue (as the book does, in fact) that "monsters" are pretty much limited to whatever they can find by way of equipment. So I'm personally fairly relaxed about that as far as the rules are concerned, but there may be scope for a MonstersZine! article on the subject? I've always thought it a bit odd that you have to buy a club, it ought to be something most adventurers could make for themselves. On the relative costs of things, I did some research on that a while back. Suffice it to say some of the T&T costs are way out of line based on medieval sources, but those in themselves are difficult to interpret and occasionally contradictory. I guess you'd have to establish a base medium for exchange (something which the Zimrala book cleverly sidesteps) and then think about scarcity and rebuild the economy/ies from scratch. Thinking about this, there is scope for some articles in any new Zine (something I would actually prefer in many ways to designer's diktat) but whether anyone would want to read stuff like that is anyone's guess.
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