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Post by branderwydd /|\ on Mar 28, 2007 18:22:21 GMT -5
i hate to bring up the dreaded other game, but one thing it has going for it are cohesive long term campaigns with a clear start and finish. most T&T adventures are one offs that the GM may string together to create a "campaign". i know some individual GMs create full blown campaigns for their own games, but i don't think anything like this has ever been published - even in amateur format - for T&T. what i'm refering to are 'shackled city', 'age of worms', and 'savage tide'. i'm sure some people have already dismissed this out of hand because i brought up that other game, and if that's your take on gaming, don't bother on responding to this. i am of the opinion that we can learn from everything around us, even if we don't always agree with that everything 100%.
i'm not trying to emulate that other game so much as address some criticism often directed at T&T - that it can't hold up for long term campaign level play. most non-T&Ters think its a quaint beer and pretzels type of game for one shots, but i've used it for long term campaign play for decades now, and i'd like to show this potential to others (even if it is just preaching to the chorus).
what i'm thinking is to develop a full campaign that would take a party of characters from 1st level all the way up to say 10th level. in 7e rules, that could take forever, so i think 10 adventures should be appropriate to portray everything that needs to happen, and the PCs would advance one level per adventure. the conclusion should be something suitable for a party of powerful characters, like saving the world from the super meanie bad guy.
so, the point of me bringing all of this up here, is that i'm wondering if a handful of other people would be interested in collaboratively designing and writing these adventures with me, and then we can see about getting them submitted into a certain T&T fanzine as a serial article until the campaign has run its course.
anyone interested? if so, let me know and we'll get working on this. i already have a basis for an outline (although i'm open to some other ideas) that needs to be fleshed out and would benefit from the creative input of others. not sure if i explained myself well enough here for others to understand what i'm shooting for. if not, i'll try to explain more.
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Mar 28, 2007 23:10:29 GMT -5
I understand exactly what you're talking about, branderwydd. I'd love to see a well-thought out long-term T&T campaign published. I tried to do one myself some time back, but it's a lot of work for one person, and I just couldn't do it by myself and do everything else that I want to do. I also had planned to do it as both a solo and a moderated adventure, which was double the work, and quite overwhelming. Plus I wasn't feeling much love from FBI -- but we have "that company" now.
If a bunch of us worked on this project together, maybe it could actually be done. That would be the coolest. I want in! I'm usually very busy, but for this I would make time somehow.
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Mar 28, 2007 23:11:43 GMT -5
BTW, I'm giving you an exalt for your motivation to attempt such an undertaking.
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Post by branderwydd /|\ on Mar 29, 2007 17:02:26 GMT -5
khaydhaik~
thanks for the interest and the exalt. i'm serious about doing this one way or another. if i just do it myself for my own players, it will probably only be fleshed out enough to be used by me (as i'll know what i want to do without complete explanation). if we can do it on a greater scale as a group, it'll be better developed and will benefit from your involvement.
i'm going to start outlining my ideas this weekend and then i'll post here and see who else bites. i admit to a bais toward the lejentia setting, so right now i'm leaning in the direction of fleshing out many of the ideas presented but never developed for that setting. (i wink suggestively at skathros - you know the potential for some great stuff here.)
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Post by skathros on Mar 30, 2007 5:36:48 GMT -5
Wink received! I'll bite. Post what you have so far, I'd love to take a look!
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dalton
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Post by dalton on Mar 30, 2007 8:47:01 GMT -5
Hey Guys,
I am currently working on a campaign that you may want to use. It begins at a tavern in the city of lowpain, with a few mercenary jobs that get the delvers run out of town, into a caravan that is travelling across Felid territory to meet up with the Elorheim walking cities. The a group of Felid young on the adolecent walk about begin to track the caravan and the delvers need to stop at a series of ruins to protect themselves. The ruins are important to the Frome, and the Felid's let a local Frome trader know of the incursion. The Delvers, after finding the artifact that is so important, meet up with the Elorheim on the outskirts of their current location, just to end up being scattered by a Jagresh Raid that was carried out by their flying rafts. The delvers are forced to travel along the blades edge until they cross the River Benlack at the Falls of Phentoon. Their they get to rest at the Sepentii city of Llardark. During the night, a group of Ormeil mercenaries and a Traul attack the delvers while they sleep, overcoming them and sending them via caravan back to the city of Lowpain (bounty hunters can be a pain). This is actually good fortune as the Jagresh (paid by the Frome) attack Llardark the next day. Back in Lowpain, the delvers find themselves caught between two political groups and the local thieves guild. The only reason they are kept alive is due to a favour owed from the first part of the campaign. They escape via a bribe and the ghoul tunnels under the graveyard, just to find themselves confronted by a Khazud warrior who has found out that something is going on with the house of Frome and he wants to make sure it ends badly for the Frome. So the final chapter of the campaign has the players needing to go to the city of Nelm, to investigate the local spice merchants, to find out who hired the Jagresh, and finally, with the help of the Khazud, embarrass the local Frome Trading Guild with the expulsion of their arch nemesis who for most of the campaign, they were oblivious to.
The campaign has city, village, wilderness, dungeon and mystery elements to it.
Maps are done using CC3 but I am redoing them with FM8.
My own players are right now in jail in lowpain, but they should be on their way to Nelm before the end of the next play session.
It is far from polished but, I think you may find it an interesting campaign.
best regards
Dalton
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Mar 30, 2007 19:45:57 GMT -5
For this project, for it to keep my interest, I think I will need to be more involved in creating the adventure than what it sounds like would be needed if we use an already existing campaign. If I'm following some script and just basically polishing it for publication, I don't think I'll make it to the end of the project. But that's just me...
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Post by branderwydd /|\ on Apr 1, 2007 16:11:25 GMT -5
i concur with khaydhaik. while i appreciate the offer dalton, it isn't really what i was looking to do with this project.
having said that, while i had said i would post something for this this weekend, i'm not sure i will get to it before tomorrow evening. i run a play-by-post game that is kicking my butt and i spent WAY too much time today moderating that rather than planning and posting this adventure path idea. i have now imposed a limit to the number of posts the players can make, otherwise i'm gonna spend all of my time doing that instead of this, and that cannot be.
i'll get back to this later tonight or monday night.
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dalton
4th Level Troll
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Post by dalton on Apr 1, 2007 19:34:13 GMT -5
No problems guys, It just happens to be a campaign I am currently playing. I made some mention of it on my game world thread.
best regards
Dalton
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Post by branderwydd /|\ on Apr 2, 2007 18:24:48 GMT -5
i've been trying to figure out exactly how i wanted to handle level progression in this campaign. my goal is to move PCs from 1st to 10th over the course of the campaign, so one level per well-detailed adventure. normally, it would require many thousands of adventure points to go up a level, and tracking this and crunching numbers to keep PCs in line would be daunting.
however, last night i had a brainstorm. to move an attribute from 10 (an average starting number) to 20 is ten points. times this by 8 for each attribute, and you get 80 to raise all attributes. why bother figuring out all of the adventure points needed to do this? instead, i can award PCs these points directly and they can immediately be added to attributes instead of adding up a bunch of numbers and carrying them over several adventures until there is enough to raise the attribute wanted.
over the course of a long adventure at each level, the GM decides what actions deserve rewards and allots a value for each action. save the princess = 2 points. kill the dragon = 2 points, but just driving it off = 1 point, etc. about 60 points should be assigned in this way. the other 20 points can be saved and doled out for great roleplaying, best player of the session, or problem solving, and whatnot. if the whole dungeon/adventure isn't explored, or the PCs screwup parts of it, they will miss important opportunities and won't get anywhere near the whole 60-80 points possible at each level. players who do better than others will accrue more points, as they should, and variation will ensue (along with player strategy on how they want to construct their character).
in a regular paced campaign, these 80 points could be spread out over several adventures for slower advancement. what i'm trying to do here is a fast-paced, quick progression campaign.
i'm curious what others think of this idea, but for me i know it will be a fabulous tool for simplifying GM paperwork and planning, and i'll definitely be using this. i only wish i had thought of it years ago....
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Post by branderwydd /|\ on Apr 2, 2007 20:04:56 GMT -5
below is my starting outline. it is a work in progress and i realize if you are not a lejentia fan, you won't know who all of the players are, but i will explain more at a later date. obviously, there is a lot more to be done with this, but we have to start somewhere.
i have five people who have expressed interest in this project. my thinking is that if everyone writes two adventures (including the write up of zamhala, for a total of 11 pieces), and i write one plus oversee everything so there is continuity, that it is actually doable. if we can get other people to sign on, that would cut things down even more. we can coordinate things via email, posts and chats.
other thoughts and ideas are appreciated.
"Carnival of Souls"
Set in Zamhala, the Port of Tears, at the base of Fort Bevits. This is a tiny riverport community affiliated with the Tarin Tor army. It is just up river from Skully’s Harbor.
Featured monsters: steel dervish, tou powi, noville, benevolent, demon, hell hound, nix, quitzah, uriel, b^rron
1. The PCs are in town for the upcoming Biennial Harmony Feast and the Trailing Carnival (females who follow the army in the field and their competition to see who is the best in their business). The PCs explore Zamhala (which needs to be fleshed out from the simple list of buildings and map that is provided). The PCs witness a high-ranking officer named Ramadon the Butcher abuse several disobedient soldiers at one point. While there, a trio of angry b^rrons attack the fort in retribution for the deaths of their bonded rowns. The PCs can distinguish themselves by helping save the lives of the townsfolk until the b^rrons are dealt with.
2. For relaxation, the PCs spend a night in the neutral Golden Griffin Casino – gambling, partying, fighting in the mini arena and so on. Eventually, someone plays in the high stakes wheel and they are won by a mysterious stranger (this is Ramadon in disguise). The stranger commands the PCs to travel to some nearby caverns to retrieve something for him.
3. PCs explore the Caverns of the Dead Horse God to retrieve said item. This is really just a test set by Ramadon to see if the PCs have what it takes to perform other assignments for him later on.
4. PCs get involved with a murder plot and other foul play between some of the girls as they prepare to compete for the upcoming Golden Mink Trophy in the Trailing Carnival. One half-demon girl falls in love with a willing PC. This is a setup to get her out of the competition as she is a major contender.
5. The half-demon girl tells her lover there is a religious relic kept in the Lair of the Wolf-Mother deep within the Tanglewood. This relic can free her of her demonic taint. She wants the PCs to go there and return this item to her. While there, the PCs meet their mysterious stranger again who reveals himself to be Ramadon. He wants the PCs to steal a magical artifact called the Focus of Harmony during the upcoming Biennial Harmony Feast. He will provide invitations and cover.
6. Biennial Harmony Feast and all it involves: arena fights, sacrifices, parties, parades, awards, gifting, etc. The PCs steal the Focus of Harmony at Ramadon’s bidding during the festival; unfortunately, the Focus, a gem, secretly allows Hyl Sudiar, Bazaroth’s mortal representative in the world, to see through it, so the PCs are easily found and captured. They are slated to be sacrificed. Ramadon seemingly betrays the PCs and makes to sacrifice them to the God-King of Hell - Bazaroth; instead he magically teleports them away.
7. Minions of Hyl Sudiar try to track down the PCs through magically scrying and tracking, sending assassins and conjured monsters to kill or capture them. Through a series of misadventures, the PCs end up in Hell, in the Betting Pits.
8. While fighting for their lives in the Hellish Betting Pits, the PCs are won by Guiya Dark, Bazaroth’s ‘left-hand man’, who offers them a job. It seems that Dark is preparing to stage a coup d’état against his liege. He knows he can’t beat Bazaroth without aid, so he wants the PCs to rescue an imprisoned god for him.
9. PCs explore the alien landscape of the Inferno, evading capture by demons and other hellish creatures, while they make their way to the imprisoned god.
10. The PCs enter the prison to free Gle’lath, an alien noville god kept in a special form of imprisonment called ‘Oblivion’. With Gle’lath and the aid of his loyal gold-crested novilles, Guiya Dark stages his coup against Bazaroth.
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Apr 3, 2007 2:07:20 GMT -5
About raising attributes: Note that it does not take 80 attribute points to raise a character with all 10s from 1st level to 2nd level. It only takes 10 points. Giving someone 80 points to distribute amongst attributes would allow a PC to advance 8 levels, if they chose to put all 80 points on one attribute.
This simply means that we need to exercise some control over how those 80 points can be distributed. The AP system does this quite handily; if someone starts piling up a lot of points on one attribute, it becomes increasingly more expensive. If you just give straight points, you will undoubtedly see PCs piling all of those points onto a select few attributes, rather than distributing them somewhat uniformly over the 8 attributes.
To raise one attribute from (N x 10) to ((N+1) x 10) takes 4,500 + (N*10,000) AP. That is, going from a 10 to a 20 takes 14,500. Going from 20 to 30 takes 24,500. Going from 30 to 40 takes 34,500. Etc.
Thus, the least expensive means to get from level N to level N+1 (i.e., piling all of one's earned AP onto one attribute) costs:
(N x 10,000) + 4,500 AP
Now, let's assume that our PCs will want to be a little more rounded than they would be if they all just piled their AP onto one attribute. In that case, the AP in the formula above won't get them from one level to the next. But if we doubled the AP in the above formula, that would be enough to raise two attributes to level height, or to raise one attribute to level height and two or more other attributes to significant levels (remembering that the lower the attribute, the less it takes to raise it, so if you spread the AP out, the number of points you get out of them is more than if you concentrate them on one or two attributes).
Thus, a formula for the AP to be given per adventure might look more like this:
AP for adventure #N: 2 x (N x 10,000 + 4,500) = (N x 20,000) + 9,000.
Here's a chart of AP per adventure:
Adventure #1: 29,000 bonus APs Adventure #2: 49,000 bonus APs Adventure #3: 69,000 bonus APs Adventure #4: 89,000 bonus APs Adventure #5: 109,000 bonus APs Adventure #6: 129,000 bonus APs Adventure #7: 149,000 bonus APs Adventure #8: 169,000 bonus APs Adventure #9: 189,000 bonus APs
(Adventure #10 doesn't matter, because the campaign will be over. But the formula for #10 would give 209,000 bonus APs.)
We could round up these numbers to the nearest 10,000, which would give the PCs a few extra APs:
Adventure #1: 30,000 bonus APs Adventure #2: 50,000 bonus APs Adventure #3: 70,000 bonus APs Adventure #4: 90,000 bonus APs Adventure #5: 110,000 bonus APs Adventure #6: 130,000 bonus APs Adventure #7: 150,000 bonus APs Adventure #8: 170,000 bonus APs Adventure #9: 190,000 bonus APs
The above APs could be given at the end of the adventure, instead of the 80 points you were suggesting. You could still grant APs for SRs, combat, casting spells, etc., and these points would help to bolster the PC's stats further without being unbalancing. It would be up to the player as to whether to keep track of these incidental APs, and some of them they could calculate themselves. They wouldn't have to keep track of these incidental APs, but if they wanted to do the bookkeeping, why not let them? The only work the GM has to do for this is to tell them the AP for combat, and that could be as simple as disclosing the MR values.
Instead of giving out all bonus APs right at the end of the adventure, they could be divvied out piecemeal during the adventure. The total amount given for daring to each PC would add up to the numbers in the above chart. If the PCs missed some part of the adventure that would have given them bonus APs -- oh, well, they missed it, and don't get the APs.
I wouldn't give out enough AP to raise all eight of a PC's attributes by 10 points during one adventure. The average PC is unlikely to distribute such large amounts of AP uniformly across all attributes. So why give them enough AP to raise all eight attributes if they are unlikely to spend them that way anyway?
Putting limits on the stat advancement will allow the PCs to focus on what's important for them, rather than lavishly throwing stat points here and there.
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Apr 3, 2007 2:30:07 GMT -5
Here's my above chart of bonus APs again:
Adventure #1: 30,000 bonus APs Adventure #2: 50,000 bonus APs Adventure #3: 70,000 bonus APs Adventure #4: 90,000 bonus APs Adventure #5: 110,000 bonus APs Adventure #6: 130,000 bonus APs Adventure #7: 150,000 bonus APs Adventure #8: 170,000 bonus APs Adventure #9: 190,000 bonus APs
If we take a page from the Trollhalla book, we can use the idea of TGP, what are referred to as Trollish Glory Points on Trollhalla. Each TGP is worth 1000 TVP -- a TVP is the Trollhalla equivalent of an AP. We could give out bonus points in the form of TGP. Then, instead of giving out 30,000 AP, we give out 30 TGP, which equates to the same thing, but doesn't sound like we're being quite so generous.
Instead of calling these bonus points TGP, we could call them Campaign Points (CP), Story Points (SP), Fate Points (FP), Bonus Points (BP), or whatever. Using the abbreviations CP or SP could be confused with the monetary units, though I do like Campaign Points. We could call them Campaign Bonus Points (CBP), I suppose, though that doesn't have quite the same ring.
For now, I'll call them TGP. The above chart would then become as follows:
Adventure #1: 30 TGP Adventure #2: 50 TGP Adventure #3: 70 TGP Adventure #4: 90 TGP Adventure #5: 110 TGP Adventure #6: 130 TGP Adventure #7: 150 TGP Adventure #8: 170 TGP Adventure #9: 190 TGP
An example of divvying out these points during the course of Adventure #1 might go like this:
The PCs explore Zamhala. 10 TGP
The PCs witness a high-ranking officer named Ramadon the Butcher abuse several disobedient soldiers at one point. 5 TGP
While there, a trio of angry b^rrons attack the fort in retribution for the deaths of their bonded rowns. The PCs can distinguish themselves by helping save the lives of the townsfolk until the b^rrons are dealt with. 15 TGP
Total TGP for Adventure #1: 30
And here's an example of how 50 TGP could be divvied out during Adventure #2:
For relaxation, the PCs spend a night in the neutral Golden Griffin Casino – gambling, partying, fighting in the mini arena and so on. 30 TGP
Eventually, someone plays in the high stakes wheel and they are won by a mysterious stranger (this is Ramadon in disguise). 5 TGP
The stranger commands the PCs to travel to some nearby caverns to retrieve something for him. 15 TGP
Total TGP for Adventure #2: 50
And so on...
Using TGP (or the same idea with a different name) would allow us to work with small numbers, and let the player convert them to large numbers and spend them just like AP.
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Post by branderwydd /|\ on Apr 3, 2007 5:53:20 GMT -5
About raising attributes: Note that it does not take 80 attribute points to raise a character with all 10s from 1st level to 2nd level. It only takes 10 points. Giving someone 80 points to distribute amongst attributes would allow a PC to advance 8 levels, if they chose to put all 80 points on one attribute.
yes, the 80 was from raising all attributes over a period of time. in all my years of playing, and maybe this is peculiar to my games, i've noticed that the players want well-rounded characters. someone could put all of their points into one attribute, and they'd excel in things related to that attribute, but would likely die quickly when they fail to make SRs on other attributes at higher levels, or fail to be able to acquire new spells.
i'll have to read the rest of your posts in more detail later. i've also created the same kind of charts for APs, and i find it too bothersome (which is why the other idea looked promising).
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khaydhaik
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Post by khaydhaik on Apr 3, 2007 22:14:27 GMT -5
I've played too many games with players that do min-maxing, so I guess my experiences have been at the other extreme from yours, branderwydd.
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