|
|
Post by jongjungbu on Sept 29, 2009 16:13:52 GMT -5
I think the clone is dead in the vat. Lots of ideas, good ones too but mostly all different. *plays funeral dirge on rusty harmonica whist shuffling away from the cooling vat* It's dead before it even started? |
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Sept 29, 2009 18:38:33 GMT -5
Well, OK - a text file, yes. I meant not any appreciation for microsoft orthe word program, only that it is available in a commonly editable format.
|
|
Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
|
Post by Hogscape on Sept 29, 2009 20:52:05 GMT -5
I think the clone is dead in the vat. Lots of ideas, good ones too but mostly all different. *plays funeral dirge on rusty harmonica whist shuffling away from the cooling vat* It's dead before it even started? Perhaps that's my churlish way of asking for a bit of focus but I'm definitely premature. Everyone should have a chance to spew out their ideas and wish lists then a mighty clone can be assembled from the pieces. ;D |
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 29, 2009 22:10:39 GMT -5
While I agree 5.x should be the target, I think 5.5 should be the target, not 5.0. I don't see a big difference. One has someone's house rules that are actually printed in the back and the other doesn't... The rules are the same. Tho I have serious concerns about a power stat without the balance of it providing some resistance. That said, with 5.5 8-stat and 5.x advancement... I don't think balance is anything we should give a s*** about. The original game didn't, and it's (5th ed. itself) has worked just dandy for 30 years. (Hm! This year marks thirty years for 5th ed. alone. Wow.) Still, like I said, I think it'll be fine to include it in an "elaborations" section. But there's reason to have either SPD or a power stat in the regular rules. As for MR, I think it's pretty distinctive, but it's been cloned into some other stuff... Ironically, into RPGPundit's Forward To Adventure, a d20 & T&T derivative/hybrid. He works the other direction; HP is 5+(5x HD), Pas is 3+(HD/3), Act is 3+(HD/2), Adds are 4+HD. His combat system is very T&T derived, too... but dice are based upon size, not weapon, and weapons provide adds.... so we could go the other direction, as did Pundit. But FtA! isn't a clone. Not even close. It's a game inspired by a handful of different games, as well as mixing the elements of such, so, even if he would have used MR as-is and called it Monster Rating, he'd be ok, because the remainder of the work is clearly not, as a whole, T&T. Monsters rated in CD+Adds. Toughness = Adds + (5x CD). SR's made with CD+Adds. (When adds = CD*5, Tou=MR) Umm.. -lol- Ok. I didn't follow that at all.  |
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 29, 2009 22:12:29 GMT -5
But with scope to "plug-in" v7 mods, TARO, Khrem, Zero lvl SR. Add Ons could include: Additional Types, leading to more stats Additional Races, leading to types Additional Spell Books, hint hint Additional Shops with Equipment Just freewheeling here... But, see... this is all the cool stuff all you creative types can publish as being "Compatible with 'Clone'". Save sumpin' fer later.  |
|
|
|
Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 29, 2009 22:12:58 GMT -5
I started typing based upon what's been posted. Working on CGen and core types. Working in Apple's Pages. Will put a PDF up when I get something reasonably playable as a core.
|
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 29, 2009 22:28:07 GMT -5
Writing a simple restatement of 5th edition will not be hard to do. Once that restatement is accomplished, then there is room for others to remove/replace/tack on other rules and variations and such. One of the greatest things about the Swords & Wizardry clonegame IMO is that it is available as a Word document - you can cut from it, add directly to it, etc - makes it very easy to form a game-book exactly to your tastes from a simple core. The point of this is preservation - the vat still percolates... sometimes good clones take time, and maybe a few imperfect homonculi take shape first... but yeah, at this point, I think it is important to keep in mind the importance of simple restatement. + effin' 1! This is not a new game. This is not yet another version of T&T. This is not a 'new and improved' T&T. This is T&T Fifth Edition as close as legally possible. Problems. Warts. Eccentricities. Issues. Everything. Do we have 'room' to tweak some little and strange things? Sure. In fact, it will be somewhat necessary. Beyond that, no. In my own personal game I wouldn't care if the weapon list was 57 weapons or three or ten or a thousand... But... if I had the clone rules, and a solo or adventure written for 5th said there was a grand shamsheer in the pile of stuff, I might wanna know what it's stats are. That's the reason for compatibility. |
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 29, 2009 22:31:00 GMT -5
OMG, Microsoft Word, throws down tools and leaves the workroom, muttering about bad software and that he won't buy it. Um. What? I don't have Microsoft Word, but my software can create a .doc file and read them and I didn't spend anything. Open Office and Abi Word, both. Just to be clear the goal here is a PDF, not a Word Document! Until it's time to lay it up all submissions should be as straight txt documents. Then we can have it customised for the different platforms. You misunderstand. S&W (and LL) also have text files. Not only. (Edited, because I came off as a real jacka** with my stupid "rolls eyes' smiley. Apologies.) |
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 29, 2009 22:34:31 GMT -5
WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE?!?
I wish I'd never brought it up.
This.
This is exactly why Dan didn't say a word about his work on Labyrinth Lord until he was done. He didn't have to compromise it's purpose and intent. He didn't have to answer the whiny D&D geeks about improving this or including that or changing this and that.
He just had to deal with all that stupid crap after it was already out, available and being purchased left and right. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by ProfGremlin on Sept 29, 2009 23:05:00 GMT -5
Ok, I don't have any specific replies but the thought comes to me that, as was said earlier, it's the core that needs to be worked with. To that end, why not use the structure of either the Corgi lite rules or the Free RPG Day rules as your core? Take those and rewrite them changing the names/words to more generic format, i.e. ADDS becomes Melee Bonus and Missile ADDS becomes Ranged Bonus. Starting from a core that most folks agree is canon will get you very close to the original. From there you can treat it as modular and work on the various sections focusing on expanding them as needed. As far as distribution, I'm not a big fan of PDF's. I like the idea of being able to copy/paste text, print single pages and most importantly add and/or edit text. I've come across some PDF's that wouldn't let me do some of that. Most notably those who were scanned as multi-page image documents and/or password protected. I would offer the idea of using an Open Office text format. It's free and a reasonably good text editor. You can even get a version that will run off a usb jump drive over at portableapps.com. For the end product, sure offer it as a PDF but I'd be really interested in seeing a choice to have the Open Office format as well. Just a few rambling ideas from a tired mind. Feel free to ignore the gremlin in the corner.... |
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 30, 2009 4:31:23 GMT -5
Ok, I don't have any specific replies but the thought comes to me that, as was said earlier, it's the core that needs to be worked with. To that end, why not use the structure of either the Corgi lite rules or the Free RPG Day rules as your core? Again, I agree. The only problem then becomes the filling of the fluff. Namely, to take up space (without arbitrarily taking up space) to fill out at least 80 or so pages. Why? Because, if I remember correctly, there's a minimum page count for hardbounds on Lulu....and there should be a hardbound on Lulu. ADDS becomes Melee Bonus and Missile ADDS becomes Ranged Bonus. I like that. MB and RB. As far as distribution, I'm not a big fan of PDF's. I like the idea of being able to copy/paste text, print single pages and most importantly add and/or edit text. I've come across some PDF's that wouldn't let me do some of that. Most notably those who were scanned as multi-page image documents and/or password protected. I would offer the idea of using an Open Office text format. It's free and a reasonably good text editor. You can even get a version that will run off a usb jump drive over at portableapps.com. For the end product, sure offer it as a PDF but I'd be really interested in seeing a choice to have the Open Office format as well. To me, it's not worth it being done if it isn't: pdf and text file and a softcover and a hardback at least on Lulu....to start with. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 30, 2009 5:37:25 GMT -5
Ok, I don't have any specific replies but the thought comes to me that, as was said earlier, it's the core that needs to be worked with. To that end, why not use the structure of either the Corgi lite rules or the Free RPG Day rules as your core? Take those and rewrite them changing the names/words to more generic format, i.e. ADDS becomes Melee Bonus and Missile ADDS becomes Ranged Bonus. Starting from a core that most folks agree is canon will get you very close to the original. From there you can treat it as modular and work on the various sections focusing on expanding them as needed. One reason: it is honestly better, at least in my 12 years of academic writing, to write "blind" to avoid identifiable turns of phrase, and then have others check to see if it's too close in wording or too far in interpretation. Further, It needs to be able to stand alone, to be played with no reference of other texts needed. A clone that relies upon knowledge of the original is not a clone useful beyond the grognards. Where I'll need the most help is probably spells. And I'm working from a 5.5 basis, not a 5.0, since I strongly prefer the 8 atts. In just a few hours of work this afternoon (I had a BW game to play) I have attributes, figured stats, several of the core types, and a start on experience. In hopes of rationalizing the XP table, I considered using the D&D3E progression, where width of a level = level number... Using the D&D3 progression will, however, make far fewer XP needed, and make 1 point of ST/CN/PW= 1000 XP, and 1 pt of DX/IQ/CH=2000 XP, and 1 point LK=500XP, uniformly. (D&D 3 is a triangular function x1000XP; it's readily known.) Now, I noticed that the extant T&T5 progression for the first several levels is doubling the width of the level L1 1000 XP wide; 0-999; L2 2000 XP wide; 1K-2999 L3 4000 XP wide; 3K-6999 L4 8K wide; 7k-14999 but it breaks here L5 10K wide; 15K to 24999 L6 20K wide; 25K-44999 L7 25K wide; 45K-69000 L8 30K wide; 70K-99999 L9 40K wide; 100K-139K L10 60K wide; 140K-199K L11 80K wide; 200K-279K L12 120K wide; 280k-399K It's just not a regular progression. Thoughts? |
|
machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
|
Post by machfront on Sept 30, 2009 8:04:28 GMT -5
Aramis,
I don't think Prof (and I know I wasn't) is saying that 'starting with the lite version of the rules' pertained to copying the text exactly or even closely, but rather with an eye towards the mechanics specifically, since the real core is there. Plus, I'd argue it is indeed better, since it's a true frame of reference, and it doesn't come with the 'baggage' of the phrasing and so on present in the full rules.
Further, if you utilize 8 attributes and 'improve' the experience progression beyond a tiny, itty-bitty tweak to keep it legally different... you're not making a Fifth Edition clone.
Next!
|
|
|
|
Post by Toad-Killer-Dog on Sept 30, 2009 9:51:23 GMT -5
Well I'll lend a hand with "Fluff" and unique creatures if I can. I'm afraid I'm too much of a tinkerer to be trusted with the base mechanics ( at least not without serious supervision  ). As far a "M.R." how about "C.R." it could stand for either "Creature Rating" or "Combat Rating", I'm partial to "Combat Rating" myself seeing as I use "M.R." for humans and kindred NPC's all the time. For "S.R." how about "Difficulty Roll", considering a skill system is a given even if only in the elaborations section "Stat Roll" might be a little misleading ( although not really anymore than "Saving Roll" itself! ;D ). |
|
|
|
Post by feldrik on Sept 30, 2009 12:31:31 GMT -5
I always define S.R. as Skill Roll for new players, that is how it gets used most often. It can be Task Roll or Task Resolution Roll..or for even Task Resolution Check (TRC).
If you need to fill out monsters can be a bit more defined. A monster 'kit' with various monster abilities listed (fire, paralyze....) and some detail on how to use the M.R. to determine how well the beastie can perform other skills by deriving stats for TRC from their MR on the fly (1/4 an Orc's MR is Luck for example). This sort of thing should be more or less in the form of a text book so it is an easy reference for the new GM and avoids intellectual property infringements.
Who ever does this (or if everyone does a version) should just do it. They will essentially be T&T core with the authors house rules as additions, a good thing I think.
|
|
).