koraq
4th Level Troll
Posts: 355
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Post by koraq on Sept 30, 2009 16:33:39 GMT -5
I'm still not convinced it's a good idea to make a clone when T&T is in print.
Note though, Machfront is right. If you do a clone, you do a clone of warts and all. That's the whole point.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Sept 30, 2009 18:53:45 GMT -5
Aramis, I don't think Prof (and I know I wasn't) is saying that 'starting with the lite version of the rules' pertained to copying the text exactly or even closely, but rather with an eye towards the mechanics specifically, since the real core is there. Plus, I'd argue it is indeed better, since it's a true frame of reference, and it doesn't come with the 'baggage' of the phrasing and so on present in the full rules. Further, if you utilize 8 attributes and 'improve' the experience progression beyond a tiny, itty-bitty tweak to keep it legally different... you're not making a Fifth Edition clone. Nope. Doing a 5.5 edition "clone," not a 5.0; 5.5 is 8 atts. In fact, of the clones, only OSRIC doesn't make some significant changes, and, due to inability to reword certain elements without either vagueness or altering the meaning, doesn't include several things. Adding a paragraph for redaction of SP & PW is, IMO, a better approach than a paragraph adding them. (After all, it's easier to say, "If not using SP, any SRs on SPD are instead taken on DX. If not using PW, any SRs and spell costs use ST instead." than it is to delineate what goes elsewhere.) The goal of most clones is supplement/adventure direct compatibility, not 100% identical. No successful clone has been a 100% work alike.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Sept 30, 2009 19:48:23 GMT -5
Nope. Doing a 5.5 edition "clone," not a 5.0; 5.5 is 8 atts. I fail to see how 5.5 is a 'version' of the rules. It isn't. It's 5th ed. and it happens to have someone's extra stuff crammed in the back. Simple as that. In fact, of the clones, only OSRIC doesn't make some significant changes, and, due to inability to reword certain elements without either vagueness or altering the meaning, doesn't include several things. Labyrinth Lord is roughly 98.5% the same. Far closer to B/X than OSRIC is to AD&D1E. This is precisely why LL is a recognized leader. Also, it's why I keep bringing it up specifically...because Dan and the game 'get it'. Adding a paragraph for redaction of SP & PW is, IMO, a better approach than a paragraph adding them. (After all, it's easier to say, "If not using SP, any SRs on SPD are instead taken on DX. If not using PW, any SRs and spell costs use ST instead." than it is to delineate what goes elsewhere.) However, neither a power attribute nor speed are necessary in the slightest, nor are they core to the game as it stood for thirty years, so you're adding them anyway and then saying, "oh, and you can get rid of them". What? Sorry. I just firmly disagree on their addition to the core rules in general. A house rule? Cool. Perfect. But keep it slim. Don't weigh the rules and by extention, players, with things that aren't needed and that are very easy to add. Are things easier to add than take away? In my personal experience, it's much easier to add. Most especially if the rules are lite. This is the case with T&T. But, really, that doesn't matter as much as the fact that it isn't needed. Speed much more so than power. The goal of most clones is supplement/adventure direct compatibility, not 100% identical. No successful clone has been a 100% work alike. That's only one of the goals of the clones. And if you ignore the purpose behind the other reasons, you may as well toss out this one too. No clone can be 100% identical. If they could, then that would have been a design principle behind one or two or more for certain. But, in LL's case, it's most certainly as close as legally possible. Dan didn't just arbitrarily add in his own house rules. It wasn't a matter of, "Well, this makes sense to me cuz I'm great." and "I love this house rule of mine, so I'm gonna defecate it right on those rules." The changes he made were made only because of a need to keep out of the crosshairs of legal mess concerning product identity and so on. When he made those changes, he made a real effort to choose parts that wouldn't have an adverse effect on play at at the table, that, while it may look or be different side-by-side, book-to-book...in practicality, it wouldn't be a big deal. Also, he kept an eye towards changes he had to make and still making sure they made sense and were logical and not contrary to the spirit of the rules. And what's funny, is that LL is the most successful of the clones...and it's the closest to it's source. Gee. Odd, that. Dude. If you wanna make you're own home flavor of the way you view the 5.5 printing of 5th ed., cool. But that isn't a clone or a simulacrum.
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quoghmyre
7th Level Troll
The Summer Troll
Posts: 1,048
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Post by quoghmyre on Sept 30, 2009 23:30:33 GMT -5
What do you call a team of Frankensteins?
k, I agree and agree, my game uses SPD all the time, but I use ST to power Magic, but I don't think they matter to the case at hand. If they're not in 5 then we leave them out.
As I said less is more, we can all add our own trimmings, later.
I'm not sure what was added to v5 in the later releases, if someone has a list message me.
The Clone Cores, people.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Oct 1, 2009 2:48:13 GMT -5
Quoghmyre: The stuff added in 5.5 appendix is spite, TARO, SPD moving to a raisable prime (from a non-raisable), and adding POW, plus an MSPE-lite type skill system. Also, in the Ken sectin are half-breeds, Dodge rule (DX/LK SR to take no damage and do only Weapon Damage, no personal adds, no level specified), Warriors burning armor to get that double adds, and the combat endurance limit (After CN rounds, ST drops 1 per round).
Other than those, the rest is setting fluff and adventure material. Otherwise, the 1979 printing of 5.0 is merely reprinted in 5.5.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Oct 1, 2009 4:47:45 GMT -5
k, I agree and agree, my game uses SPD all the time, but I use ST to power Magic, but I don't think they matter to the case at hand. If they're not in 5 then we leave them out. As I said less is more, we can all add our own trimmings, later. Precisely and precisely. Now, see, I use a base of 5th and I also utilize a very lite Talent-like skill system, a power stat, spite, armor doesn't double but warriors get an armor bonus and a handful of other stuff. Things that are indeed in the extra stuff in 5.5 and/or were long-running house rules while I was still wipin' my freakin' nose... But I wouldn't put those in a clone of 5th ed.... because then it wouldn't be a clone of 5th ed. It would be "Eric's T&T", and I'm sure you guys and others don't want that. I'm making a concerted effort to be open-minded and diplomatic, and I think I may be... but if it smells like I'm a big steaming pile of whatever offends you most, then let me know. I don't wanna be " that guy" that acts that way, ya know?
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Oct 2, 2009 1:52:29 GMT -5
Sniff sniff... What's that smell? Ahhh essense of MachFront...
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Oct 2, 2009 4:52:49 GMT -5
Sniff sniff... What's that smell? Ahhh essense of MachFront... -LOL- Uh-oh. Sorry. Ok. I'll fade into the background for a while on this subject whilst the others freely discuss. Love ya all long time.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Oct 2, 2009 9:57:07 GMT -5
No, no Mach-as, you stay around for a while please.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Oct 3, 2009 5:27:27 GMT -5
Oh, I'm still here. I'm just gonna be quiet for little while.
Oh, crap. Did I just post again?
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Post by ragnorakk on Oct 3, 2009 16:42:06 GMT -5
As an aside, I'd like to see Eric's T&T! Maybe I could clone it and call it Greg's T&T - I mean, fair is fair!
I'm all for cloning as close to the bone as possible. As a resource, it could be used by anyone (if they felt like it) to make a "Tom's T&T", "Turfler's Ultra-wicked T&T compendium", etc.
A standard resource, or at least, a shared one that can be refered to. The corgi books are really well done this way IMO.
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machfront
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
"Let's go dark!"
Posts: 2,147
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Post by machfront on Oct 4, 2009 5:18:58 GMT -5
As an aside, I'd like to see Eric's T&T! Maybe I could clone it and call it Greg's T&T - I mean, fair is fair! And I wouldn't even send you a cease & desist. ;D I'm all for cloning as close to the bone as possible. As a resource, it could be used by anyone (if they felt like it) to make a "Tom's T&T", "Turfler's Ultra-wicked T&T compendium", etc. A standard resource, or at least, a shared one that can be refered to. The corgi books are really well done this way IMO. Gotta agree with all of that 100%. No need for house rules, extras and such, T&Ters and gamers in general having been doing that themselves jus' fine all along.
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Hogscape
11th level Troll
Stalwart of the Trollbridge
It's not the years, it's the mileage.
Posts: 2,126
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Post by Hogscape on Oct 5, 2009 0:30:48 GMT -5
I suppose the other reason for sticking to a neat and tidy 5e is that there's no reason not to bother buying the 5.5 edition...
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Oct 7, 2009 14:48:20 GMT -5
I suppose the other reason for sticking to a neat and tidy 5e is that there's no reason not to bother buying the 5.5 edition... Actually, 5.5 not being integrated into the main rules is reason enough to DO a clone of it. I've got a workable core written, and yes, it goes beyond simple clone. It's got a number of options from 5, 5.5, and 7 in it, and a system of marking what's from 5, what's from 7, and what's changed by me. Spells are the hard part. I have to reword and rename each spell as I go, and a few have two versions due to different arguments. I'm NOT ready to release, but could use an outside eye to check readability and playtest it. interested parties PM me.
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