It's a high-wire balancing act

[quoghmyre]

There has been a topic brewing...

One of the roles of the GM is to ensure the game retains balance. We've had great ideas about Warriors with cart loads of gold, Wizards not reaching the higher levels of spells, and even a claim that T&T is broken if you can't reach higher SR levels with stats advanced only via level ups.

One of the key roles of the GM is to balance the game. The characters need to adventure in a world that provides for them. There needs to be enough treasure to ensure they feel like they are advancing, but also more to spend it on. No longer do they doss down in the stables, they are expected to take the best rooms in the Tavern.

The combat needs to be balanced, keeping the risk of death. Leaving the characters with the knowledge that if they hadn't pull that cunning stunt they would have been fodder. Linked with this the Ap's to keep the characters advancing through the levels. That means by Lvl 6 they are getting 1500+ Aps for a battle. If they haven't the spells, adds and magic weapons to achieve this then work for balance.

If the characters fall into a predictable pattern of spell casting then time for counter magic. Many of my dungeons are lined with tiles that are resistant to Slush Yuck, push for new ideas, new strategies and reward them in ways that build balance. Then reward the Characters with APs for great roleplaying.

Again with SR, I try and keep it simple, areas of my world and "Tunnels" are rated by difficulty, After heading downstairs, the base SR becomes level 5, so all the SR, AP are x5. You start rolling Lvl 5+ SR and the Aps flow. But if the Stats are stunted because the GM has been tight fisted with magic that ramps up the stats, then moving up the levels becomes a drag. I use a rule of thumb 1 gaming night to Level 2, 2 to level 3, 2 or 3 to Level 4, 4 to Level 5, 5 to Level 6, So in 6 months of playing each week your party should be Level 7 and 8's. By then either the Characters are now on major quests that will take them up another few levels and through the rest of the year or its time to start with new characters.

Balance! To much Gold, Luck or any Stat, Aps or Enemies and things become to difficult, for both for the Players and the GM. It stops being fun. I know many of you see T&T as a "Game System" but it was designed for Heroic Fantasy and that's what it excels at. Let the Warriors be really strong, the Rogues amazingly lucky and the Wizards super powerful. Give the players a chance to play with the toys, fight the Monsters and blast those Green Devils to Hell. But keep it balanced.

[feldrik]

I experimented with a cost of living deduction to keep the gold flowing in and out of player's hands. I thought that a base of 100gp/character level/month was fair if it meant that you did not have to role play every armor repair and meal...just the imortant and new stuff. Consuamable stuff like ammo and rations were replenished automatically for example.
I got mixed feedback and have not had enough games to get a feel for good or bad.One player said they thought it odd that I assumed they 'ate more because we are higher level'. I replied that you probably do, and give better tips, sleep in better beds and buy better...weekend companions. Merchants probably charge more for services as well since you are an 'adventure loaded with gold'.
If you can't pay the price you end up in debt and have the'collection agency' after you.
Does this sound viable over the long haul, it may be specific to the group because soem people love RPing all the details.

[Hogscape]

Quog, I don't disagree with any of your comments. All valid, all good. I suspect that there's hundreds of years of collective game-play amongst visitors to these boards. T&T players tend to be there for the long haul. If the basic game wasn't playable sound and balanced most of us would have moved on.

I get plenty of mileage out of the game but looking at the system objectively there are a number of areas that are weak because they've never realistically been tested. For example, to make your game 'heroic' you hand out magic and APs to ensure the player characters get where you want them to be. The rules as they stand, don't work for you, you had to fix them. For your play style, they are broken.

The game as written works at low levels, this is where it's been play-tested for years and years. Beyond that it's all a bit grey and fuzzy; higher level spells are (mostly) not described in a way that would make them usable and, at higher levels, the AP progression table does not relate to the rules for acquiring APs (by that I mean, following the rules will not allow you to get to level 20, you need to put your thumb on the scale).

So what I'm saying is that you fix the gaps in T&T to make the game a) the way you want it and; b) work. You just call it balancing. That works for me too.

[zedofan]

I believe that most players and all the regular players of my younger days and the new group I DM for now are less concerned with Geographic coherence,tightly knit and exacting rules or super high levels adventures than I am.
Generally speaking the group or at least the ones I've played with in the past have been fluid, three of us were regulars and the best of friends, others were occasionals or irregulars, hence it was impracticable to seek high levels and no one really seemed to give a d**n, they were there for that adventure, that night.It was leisure, relaxation, escape. The DM is the one who is concerned,who has invested time and effort in his creation :the dungeon, the wilderness, the world.The player wants to kill the monster, solve the puzzle, do the heroic deed, grab the brass ring,kiss the maiden, and scamper off with the treasure.
The DM builds castles in the air, elaborate spell books, cities, towns and villages filled with sects, guilds, taverns, docks and temples then populated with elaborately developed NPCs that are more often than not mere set pieces for the players-for the gamers-
We ,DMs, are scene makers and directors (of a sort ) but the gamer, he's an actor and a good couple of gamers limn the tale and bring it to life and at that point all involved have suspended disbelief and soared into the fantasy.That is why I am not overly concerned with reaching higher and higher levels as if one were striving to become a chess Master, or architect or Nobel prize winner or good father.It's comfortable at the lower levels beyond that it becomes too grandiose ,too elaborate to maintain in a world that 's Friday night after work,OLD SCHOOL!

[Hogscape]

Grandmaster Zedofan, I agree.

My only point is that since the game has never been playtested at those levels you have to look at that part of the game in a different light.

If you want to play a high-level game, you need to first modify the rules because at present they don't allow that. Both Quog and myself have modified the game in small ways to allow characters to get further along the scale. Quog calls it balancing, I call it fixing. That's all.

;D

[quoghmyre]

or example, to make your game 'heroic' you hand out magic and APs to ensure the player characters get where you want them to be. The rules as they stand, don't work for you, you had to fix them. For your play style, they are broken.

Not broken but an expected role of the GM, T&T requires a GM. It's not self contained like a board-game. There is no way you can just play the game from the book, get Aps, roll on treasure chart, encounter WMs and expect to have character advancement. Not only would it be boring but the characters just wouldn't get what they need to advance. I've looked at this from a programmers point of view and it's not enough, you have to have a GM script. Look at all the Solos and GM adventures from FBI they all have the "GM" giving out amazing artefacts, treasure and Aps, it is not because T&T is broken but because it's a requirement of the game.

How much the GM provides determines the type of game. And on this point it's more important to be balanced. If you're generous with APs then you need to be generous with treasure and stat mods, that's when the game becomes broken, when the GM doesn't keep the game balanced.

For characters to function at levels above 3, they have to have GM enhancement. Especially if you expect them to make Lvl 3+ SR on most stats. Even a War-Wiz would be struggling. I don't see that as broken the maths are too obvious. Now there is nothing to say that a Level 3 character is expected to adventure in locations that require Level 3 SR or encounter Level 3 type monsters nor find Level 3 type treasure, but what do your players feel. Again I counsel balance, do your players want to play week after week at low levels, struggling to make ends meet, knowing there some cool spells but not be able to cast them. Do they want to be Level 5 but only able to play in Level 2 locations.

Oh I know our GM worlds are so much fun and we put so much energy into making our worlds and adventures engaging that the Levels shouldn't matter at all. But one of the unique things about T&T (at the time) was it's open ended stats, the fact that a Rogue can have a luck of 60, that my Warrior can bench-press 3 ton and our Wizard can turn an acre of rock into slush. Yippie and a Yahoo that's the fun of T&T, not low level crawling around like goblins in the muck.

[zedofan]

There was a discussion sometime back where the idea of converting monsters, characters and adventures from other systems to T & T, it was advanced in that discussion as it spun out of control that the beauty of T & T lay in the fact that the conversion was entirely at the discertion of the DM , anything can be retooled to fit the level of the characters.In no wise is one bound to advance or retard the PCs.But , Quohg, the larger point is that it is very difficult to move along your regulars,as I explained,"Two " who will rise to higher levels ,7th? 8th? and then the others should they show at 1st, 2nd or 3rd the game with such disparities loses balance. The options are to up the occasionals or downgrade the regulars, who over many a long and winding road have accumulated a fair share of fabulous items and have access to great spells and really enjoy the campaign. So we upgrade the lot of them because that increases playability.
Fabulous spells- keep 'em cheap, put them in scroll books, in magical staves, in crystals and herbs and even the lowly can use them.There is no limit to imagination.
Really it's the players who control the game , some have ready ideas and suggestions that enhance the adventure..Most, to reiterate, are not concerned with level so much as the direction of the greater campaign, i.e. finishing the story and of course being the hero or heroine of the piece.
By the by, what I am doing this time around is using the fourth ed.level chart which should speed things along. Quoghmyre's session schedule is an excellent idea- I must say! Perhaps I'll rejigger. However(,there's always a however isn't there?) with a group composed of middle aged* married men with children and/or grandchildren , spiced with a pair of single sports fanatics( Buckeyes,Browns,the Tribe,softball,bowling,golf...) plus a grandchild or two for good measure who temper what are sometimes unruly adult sessions, it is impossible to gather a complement of players weekly. Chances are it will average out to bi weekly sessions at the very best . Bless you Quoghh, if you can get them to the gaming sessions regular as rain.

*I am middle aged. I am! I am!

[machfront]

I'd say that rather then being "Heroic Fantasy" that T&T excels at, that it's anything a group wishes to put T&T to that it excels at.

I have a dim view of so-called 'balance'. But this isn't about balance as far as within the game rules itself, but something I have an even dimmer view of and that's 'scaling'. *holds up fingers in form of a cross*
Blech.

First, I'll admit I've not understood the hubub of the other threads Quog refers to, as I don't run a game that's anything like heroic fantasy (as far as spells and magic items and arbitrary attribute buffers and so on) and I've not encountered any problems. *shrug*
So what if those high-level spells are too expensive and so on? T&T is indeed like D&D in one respect and that's that it just works best at lower to mid levels and that's a-ok, because... that's all you need anyway.
Just because the chart says "Level 20" doesn't mean that's the highest level or that it's obtainable or even desirable.

I know that what's brought up in the original post isn't really talking about bean counting, but I wish to say anyway that anyone who looks too deep into crunching all the numbers for the T&T system is: a) missing the point and b) would be better served by any number of great rpgs out there.

Anyhoo.
Back to scaling.

I must disagree with Quog on the matter of higher-level threats and SRs. It just doesn't hold water with me.
To think that a PC or group wouldn't experience threats that are either far 'beneath' their capabilities or far beyond them at any given level is artificial.
(This is why, even though I like the MR system, I dislike and disagree with the usual practice of: well, at first level they'll be fighting the MR15 orcs and later, when they're higher level, they'll be fighting the MR150 orcs. :

There's no reason not the have L1SRs to be performed by a level 9 character. There's absolutely no harm in having first level PCs stumble across the hydra's lair deep in the dark mountain forest. (Do I even need to give it an MR? No. Who would? He's not meant to be fought. Any party that, at low level, caught unawares by this encounter that is foolish enough to try and fight will be slaughtered wholesale with nary a dice roll.... and it should be expected.)
You wouldn't jump over the fence at a zoo and wave your naughty bits in the face of a polar bear would you?


If one constantly 'ups the ante' on SRs as the characters progress, then what's the point?
Yay. Now I'm sixth level... unfortunately, most SRs are fifth, sixth and seventh level... so I might as well have stayed at first and dealt with L1 and L2 SRs.

Now, can the campaign and indeed the PCs go farther into the wilderness, get deeper into the mechanizations of the secret sect, (deeper into the dungeon...Yawn!), etc.,etc? Certainly. Will things be tougher? Yes. Situations. The whole. Individual creatures? Perhaps. More orcs. Not bigger and badder orcs that have a higher MR than that first dragon they fought long ago... what was he? MR50? *sigh*
Tougher and tougher and tougher locks to pick on chests and doors? Who makes these things? Will the character ever be able to succeed with flying colors, thus granting them the enjoyment of their achieved higher levels?

But really... it's not about SRs or MRs or attributes or gold or spells or magic items or any of that. That's incidental, at best.
It's not about giving too much or too little or just enough.
It's an abstract game system. The real 'balance' is in maintaining interest. Keeping up the 'fun factor'. Ignoring the dice as much as is possible. Not ignoring the dice wholesale. Not having "yet another green-skin with a curved blade" throwing himself into certain death at the party's hands.

I mean, I guess we all agree when it comes down to it and none of us are "doing it wrong" nor are any of us going to accuse the other of having badwrongfun.
I just don't see the point in ramping up challenges, in a mechanical context (particularly SRs) so much that the power curve is non-existent and there's no thrill of advancement and being better able with your character to achieve those feats of derring-do (whether the campaign is heroic or swashbuckling or grim or nutty or whatever).

[ragnorakk]

Thanks Quogmyre for starting this interesting thread - several really interesting considerations have come up here (stable playing groups vs irregulars/balance/scaling/middle age...). So many different styles of playing that T&T is able to encompass.

I agree that the open-ended possibilities of stat scores makes it pretty awesome for epic & high level play - a player looking at their character's 50 IQ is going to try to think of things to do with that, you know? And also agree that once stats or gold or anything goes sky high, the other elements must follow.

When I started playing, I would scale adventures pretty regularly, could figure out on the fly what kind of MR scores were push-overs/challenges/serious challenges/deathtraps based on the character's regular dice and adds. Characters with very low scores would often find magic things that improved their overall chances (by improving the bad scores preferentially). My opinion on this is the kind of thing has changed over the years (I believe it's because I haven't had a regular gaming group in forever and have become a bitter, withered old troll-haunt, who keeps to his rocking chair in the attic...), but believe it's important to not deny the possibility of characters hitting really high level.

I think that, by that time, the GM would hopefully have figured out a way to deal with the *idiosyncrasies* of, say, high level spells and such (incorporating them, altering, rejecting them, etc) in a way consonant with the 'tone' of the group.

I just find myself in general agreement with everything said in this thread. Regardless of what kind of "style of play" you're into, it is a balancing act - making the whole thing work - especially with a steady group of players. Changes, modifications, tweaks are de rigeur - think about it: virtually every magic item in your game is a modification of the game - since there's no listing of "official" ones - any combat where someone tries a SR is a modification of the rules....etc (to be maybe too pedantic - sorry )

[zedofan]

That's right Ragnorakk,those idiosyncrasies with long time friends are a double edged sword, sometimes I think that I have cleverly lured them into a particularly dangerous situation,when... You did this before or ' so typical" what a wake up call.
When I do get their goat, as it's said, I could walk on air. That is the real pleasure of regulars...or did I mean good friends?