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Post by ProfGremlin on Mar 5, 2022 10:44:36 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of options.
When I think of a group sitting around a table I recognize that most folks will need access to the basic rules periodically, the elaborations occasionally, the Trollworld atlas infrequently and the Adventures are pretty much GM domain. I'd love to be able to have a pamphlet of the core rules for everyone at the table, a couple copies of the elaborations and then a copy of the atlas and adventures. In this manner, the entire table is covered while maximizing the number of additional products they can all afford. Being able to purchase the core rules and then a couple of solos would, I believe, go more towards introducing and encouraging growth amongst new players than a steeper investment of an all-in-one tome.
In my professional life, I'm an instructor. We would often printout our lesson plans in A5 / Classic sized (essentially two pages to an 8.5" x 11" sheet then cut in half) then staple them together. This makes it very handy to have a small form factor to keep in hand while delivering and yet not be cumbersome to use. I'm now wondering if it is worth investigating a double-sided print in A5 then a coiled binding via the local print shop (Small footprint on the table, lays flat and it's ok if it gets beat up well loved). The first 165 pages of dT&T are the core rules. That's just under 90 pages double-sided (include front & back covers, cover page, table of contents, index). Alternatively, an A5 binder with matching page protectors would work well. Could even print normally with two-pages to one sheet, fold the sheets in half and slide into the page protectors. It would have the benefit of being able to easily add homebrew or house rules to the appropriate sections of the core rules.
Don't get me wrong, folks, I'm not espousing and end run around the available offerings from Webbed Sphere. I'm pointing out that if you have a digital copy of dT&T you have options for your own table. That should keep us going until Webbed Sphere shows us what their next imagining of the rules will be.
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Post by gringnr on Mar 8, 2022 10:03:04 GMT -5
I'd like to see a collection of the Catalyst City Books, kind of like what Goodman games did for Grimtooth's Traps.
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Post by Rat Salad on Mar 9, 2022 21:54:57 GMT -5
Death Dice again! I don't have every single color yet!
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Mar 13, 2022 12:54:39 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of options. <snip> Don't get me wrong, folks, I'm not espousing and end run around the available offerings from Webbed Sphere. I'm pointing out that if you have a digital copy of dT&T you have options for your own table. That should keep us going until Webbed Sphere shows us what their next imagining of the rules will be. As am I (a fan of options). Having backed the Kickstarter for Deluxe but baulked at the hardcover+shipping option I (finally) got round to printing off the PDF. It's not without it's problems. For some reason my printer duplexes wonky (one side offset from the other) but it's not a huge problem in the grand scheme of things aside from not being a 'professional' job. Functional, then. Printed off 166 Pages and have the remainder to drill/sew/bind into an 'Elaborations' tome. I'm woefully out of practise especially at the covers and need to find my best way of making covers to my satisfaction as the printer margins aren't ideal. I probably need to get the A3 printer up and running and see whether that will do the trick. Anyway, today finishing up a game called 'Fleaux!' and will get on to sorting out the remainder of the T&T Deluxe book. I documented (on another forum) the mess I made of the cover. Suffice to say it's a learning curve.
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Post by mahrundl on Mar 13, 2022 18:20:20 GMT -5
apn, that is a far better result than I could ever have achieved!* It certainly looks to be a functional tome.
* No joke - when it comes to handcrafts, I have an anti-Talent with a rating well into 3 digits, and a DEX rating exceeded by many creatures without opposable thumbs...
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Post by ProfGremlin on Mar 13, 2022 21:47:54 GMT -5
...and a DEX rating exceeded by many creatures without opposable thumbs... "'ey, Boss, you wants I should 'ave a word wif 'im?" "Nah, send Mickey Thumbkin to make 'im an offer he can't refuse." Yes, folks, this is how my brain works normally. Allow me to introduce you to the subconscious. We keep it down here in the hallway closet...
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sscrompton
4th Level Troll
One of the members of the Fellowship of the Troll. Worked on dT&T with Ken, Liz, Bear & Rick.
Posts: 403
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Post by sscrompton on Mar 13, 2022 22:56:23 GMT -5
So I have a question about the dT&T book you made. Its looks really great. Do you have access to a free copy machine or did you print it out on your own printer? Just curious. Nowadays photo copies cost around 12 cents each. So 285 pages X .12 cents = $46.20. Then a color photocopy of the front and back of the book will cost $1 or $2. Then you have to pay $5 to $7 dollars to have it bound. So the total works out to $54.20. The hardback is $60, so its not that much savings really and I didn't even factor in that the dT&T book has 16 color pages. With a $6 difference, you might as well buy the actual book. (Again unless you have access to a free copier.)
Would love to hear your feedback on why not buy the actual book...
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Mar 14, 2022 7:23:50 GMT -5
Would love to hear your feedback on why not buy the actual book... I have a couple of laser printers (one bought cheap off ebay, the other bought new, cheap. the ebay one is B/W the other is Colour) to knock books out. Has a duplex function but as seen the alignment isn't right. I need to fiddle with the settings or live with it, or even print one side and flip the pages over and see how that goes. May give that a go next time. The paper is 120GSM which will be far heavier and better quality than most RPGs but it's excellent for preventing ink bleed through especially on Inkjets. A home made book press, drill and I've started sewing the books up with dental floss. Very tough and minty fresh as well. Easier to thread for my crap old eyes. To print/collate (make sure the pages are in the right order) depends on how many pages. The DT&T book is a fair old tome so may take a while (an hour over the wireless network I guess). Drilling and sewing? Five minutes. I sew with muslin cloth to form the binding and it's very tough. I don't expect the books to fall apart soon as per the Games Workshop Stormbringer book from the 80s. That thing was loose leaf after a week... Longest time is spent on the cover I guess. This is where I need to get better/faster/more efficient. Also want to get the A3 printer up and running for cover printing so have ordered a ream of paper and we'll see how that goes. Every shopping trip I'd bag a ream a paper or two from the Supermarket and when it was on sale I'd fill a trolley. Got enough for... I dunno. Dozens of books? More? Enough at any rate. Cost to print so far is tricky. I've had supplies from years ago (started in the noughties from a thread on Dragonsfoot) and laser printers are cheaper to run than Inkjets. Next project might be combining the BECMI books into Players and DMs guides along with the Gazetteers in one tome. I fancy running the BECMI adventures with T&T conversions. Anyway, initial cost set up is probably a fair bit (buying a printer and supplies). After that? Time and things like PVA glue. Get through a bit of that but it's cheap. Greyharps' guide can be found on Dragonsfoot HEREIt's an old one but still good. As for why I won't buy the actual book? I'm in the UK. Shipping bungs the price up to a level I'm not happy with. I'd prefer the actual rules in a single tome and the other stuff separate. Tried to buy a used copy on ebay not long ago and got outbid so it prompted me to print off the PDF and go from there. Should have backed it at the physical level but the shipping makes the price salty hence my comment upthread about hoping it goes Print on Demand at Drivethru which is far more reasonable.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Mar 14, 2022 7:55:00 GMT -5
Some current/previous efforts: DT&T, Dark Dungeons, T&T 7.5, Runequest II (Mongoose) with faux leather cover and Fleaux! as my first attempt as a soft cover. Which isn't that soft and I *think* I may have figured out a new/faster/better way of hard covering books. There are others knocking about including half finished ones and abandoned efforts. The home made book press is in it's second incarnation and I'm considering using metal in MK3 for better precision. Maybe a guillotine of some kind if I can find one cheap for the edges. Where I can buy new books I consider the cost and availability. So far this year it's about £2-300 on new books so where I can self bind/print for working copies I then consider how much time it will take. I have everything I need for... well, probably forever in terms of supplies though a couple of quid for some more PVA at some point will be needed. Then it's just buying the PDF, deciding on the Hard or soft cover (for the hard I use 3000 gsm thickness greyboard. Very tough and quite cheap) and after the Fleaux! book I'm considering the remainder of the DT&T book in that. Much faster because less in the way of time for glue drying and the like and easier to cover in clear contact.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Mar 15, 2022 3:41:57 GMT -5
I'm partial to the nice (nearly) pocket-sized paperbacks publ. by Corgi: a series of those again, but for dT&T, would rock my world! E.g. Vol. 1: Core Rules Vol. 2: Elaborations (incl. "Spite" probability infos). Vol. 3: Bestiary Vol. 4: Trollworld setting Vols. 5+: lots of solos and DM adventures! I miss my Corgi edition...
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Post by alkazar on Mar 16, 2022 16:13:49 GMT -5
The Deluxe Edition is very nice to look at, but it feels weird or at least out of place to have T&T printed up in an expensive prestige format hardcover. It was never that kind of game, at least not to me. One of the reasons I originally got into T&T was because it was affordable. I understand that in today's market expensive hardcovers are just the thing that elite players want and they're willing to spend large amounts of cash to get it. Problem is those type of people would never buy T&T no matter how much of a shine we put on it, it's not their kind of game especially when there are bigger names, and trendier products played by celebrities. Besides, those are not the type of people that T&T was intended for. Role playing is becoming an expensive hobby to get into, everything from dice to miniatures and rule books have become criminally over priced. T&T has traditionally been the value priced doorway for beginners looking to get into gaming. T&T was the first RPG for a ton of people and it's price point was one of the reasons.
I would like to see a return to the cheap boxed set, containing a paper back rules book (full rules, no cut down), maybe A5 or maybe like the old Corgi books. Three dice, a few character sheets; a solo adventure and a couple of short GM adventures. Nothing fancy, BW interiors and no slick paper stock etc. Keep it world agnostic so that new players are not pressured into thinking they have to play in Troll World and can create their own. So no Troll World besides this can be sold as a separate box set.
Target new players, push it's easy to learn rules and fast game play. Above all keep it affordable.
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etaion
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 63
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Post by etaion on Mar 17, 2022 20:00:05 GMT -5
Death Dice again! I don't have every single color yet! Chessex makes some nice d6 pip sets in full size and mini. The minis come in a box of 36; plenty for one T&T player. (Chessex of Pound-O-Dice fame; Yes, they're still around! I remember chipping in with friends on a Pound-O-Dice order way back when).
It'd be cool to have some T&T Demon logo ones.
Oooh -- Amazon has a Chessex Pound-O-D6s. I wish I hadn't seen that...
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dungeondevil
3rd Level Troll
Give me grain and I'll give you guns!
Posts: 174
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Post by dungeondevil on Mar 17, 2022 22:10:43 GMT -5
The hobby has always been expensive: in the early '80s it was impossible to afford pretty much anything due to the strictures the Energy Crisis and the Recession placed on most households. They were hard times. Plus those "weird" dice were also as hard to find as rocking-horse poo.
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Post by Rat Salad on Mar 17, 2022 23:19:55 GMT -5
The Carver "missed my vital spots!" limited die too. I wish I had some of those. I swear I scored a set at one time, but don't know what happened and I'm pretty darned careful with my T&T gear.
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houndle
5th Level Troll
Posts: 538
Member is Online
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Post by houndle on Mar 18, 2022 13:32:48 GMT -5
In the days of the 1970s petrochemical crisis, SPI use to ship their games with numbered pasteboard chits because they couldn't get hold of dice.
What feels different to me is that nowadays a glossy package is seen as an essential part of the product. My 1978 copy of T&T looks positively Spartan but back then it was industry standard.
A series of small books covering different aspects of T&T sounds good to me, with the option to buy as a set. At the same time, a glossy production may be more likely to attract the casual browser.
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