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Post by Rat Salad on Mar 24, 2022 12:50:23 GMT -5
It may be speaking from a natural development of nostalgia, but, honestly, from my perspective, I prefer the minimal product. I know that viewpoint is in the minority for the most part, but there was something about bringing your own imagination and ideas to it. Somehow, the bigger production where everything is there, something is lost. It's still a great thing, to have the super-deluxe and shiny package, but it's a different thing...and, of course, things naturally develop in a trajectory, so I'm not trying to harken back to the "older is better" philosophy there, but I do find myself using the older products (that I grew up on) because of my lack of interest in the "newer is better" approach. I would like to see at least the classic 5th edition (black or tan cover) stay in print, unchanged, at a reasonable price as an option. The solo-scenarios too, but at least that particular book.
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Post by alkazar on Mar 24, 2022 17:10:32 GMT -5
It may be speaking from a natural development of nostalgia, but, honestly, from my perspective, I prefer the minimal product. I know that viewpoint is in the minority for the most part, but there was something about bringing your own imagination and ideas to it. Somehow, the bigger production where everything is there, something is lost. It's still a great thing, to have the super-deluxe and shiny package, but it's a different thing...and, of course, things naturally develop in a trajectory, so I'm not trying to harken back to the "older is better" philosophy there, but I do find myself using the older products (that I grew up on) because of my lack of interest in the "newer is better" approach. I would like to see at least the classic 5th edition (black or tan cover) stay in print, unchanged, at a reasonable price as an option. The solo-scenarios too, but at least that particular book. 100% Basically that is what I was trying to say. It's not that I think older is better but that back in the day they did things smarter. I agree, 5th edition should never go out of print, and PDF's are not good enough. Nor should it be released with a lot of fluff, maybe call it T&T Classic or something.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Mar 24, 2022 17:33:17 GMT -5
The remainder of the DT&T book I home printed/bound is in it's last stage of completion so I'll whack a picture up when it's done. Same problem as before with Duplex printing as the margin is tiny at the top and big at the bottom and reversed on the other side. A happy medium is required and when I find it, I'll be happy Personally I think there is a market for a Boxed set for T&T in 64 Page style booklets split into Characters and Combat, Monsters! and Weapons/magic/treasure. Throw in a bucket o dice (or at least a pack of a dozen) and an adventure and you can have a crack at the nostalgia market in a *sort of* vacuum left with no official Basic D&D. Sure there's a stripped down 5e but for the old farts out there a hefty tome that's a handful to juggle at the table isn't desirable in many cases. If you don't think there's a market for a boxed set with smaller books for an old school type Fantasy RPG dungeon crawler (which T&T is) take a look at: THISThat's a clone using the OGL of the Moldvay Basic game, reorganised and tidied up. Three quarters of a million dollars. For a clone of an old school game. Tell me there isn't a market for an old school *large font* (we ain't getting younger) easy to read boxed set with smaller booklets instead of bullet stoppers. Give it a unified look, nice boxed set and take my money! Oh, and sort out foreign distributors because shipping costs are a swine. Heck, I may have a go at rejigging the DT&T PDF for a personal version and make my own boxed set. The more I mess about with these print at home books the quicker and easier it is to put them together. Biggest wait is the glue drying time for the cover. Either that or the corgi style books but I have all those and it was a hard sell back in the day vs BECMI D&D. D&D won, hands down (not for lack of trying, and I was the GM).
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Post by alkazar on Mar 24, 2022 19:19:03 GMT -5
I was at Wal-Mart the other day and they were selling a D&D basic boxed set from Wizards.
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apn
5th Level Troll
Posts: 578
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Post by apn on Mar 25, 2022 8:05:52 GMT -5
I was at Wal-Mart the other day and they were selling a D&D basic boxed set from Wizards. That's probably the D&D Starter Set. Characters up to 5th Level, get you into the game, buy the Players Handbook, DMG, MM to further your adventure etc. Not Basic really, more what I view as 'Advanced' (Class/Race different whereas Basic was Race as Class). Something that occurred to me whilst I was finishing up on the DT&T Book 2 "Elaborations" (Page 166 onwards of the DT&T bullet stopper) is that it was 2013 when Deluxe was launched/released. Nearly ten years in the life cycle of a game so maybe time for an update? Every other game out there is coming out with Boxed sets. I bought the Runequest one recently, have the D&D 5e sets (though they are to my shame in shrink still) and eyeing up a few more. Aside from the assembly time of flat pack boxes (heck, make the assembly easy enough and ship the thing flat packed to save on shipping) I think it makes more sense to switch to box sets/thinner books instead of hefty tomes. Deluxe was nice and finally gave the impression of T&T being 'up with the big guns' with it's own weighty tome but the game doesn't get much mention on forums these days. Even this one is pretty quiet. A new edition/relaunch would inject some life into the brand and give a return on the investment to the new buyers. To me it makes sense. Your mileage may vary. This is where I'm at on the second book of the DT&T print at home bullet stopper saga. After the disaster of the 'faux leather but looks like it's smeared in dog poo' of the core rules (up to page 166) this one is a soft ish cover book and nearing the final stage of completion once a bit of glue dries, being a coating of clear contact (sticky back clear plastic) and squishing it flat with the application of heavy books on top. I figured out how to print a larger than A4 sheet over several pages so my next projects should be full colour covers, all being well. Also need to find a cheap alternative to PVA as it takes a while to dry and I could have cut this process down by hours with the slowest part being printing instead of glue drying. Also, I'll never sew a book together with anything other than dental floss again! So easy to thread, super strong and minty fresh
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viva
3rd Level Troll
Posts: 109
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Post by viva on Mar 25, 2022 10:28:01 GMT -5
These last few comments have touched on something for me, too.
The "old school" art of the early days should not be underestimated. It is NOT just "because we grew up with it". My kids see that art and they love it. It is interesting and thought-provoking to look at and appreciate. Kids can see the new "rendered" looking stuff all day long on their phone/computer/playstation and just take a screenshot/picture of it themselves. It looks cool (I grew up playing video games and the "graphics" of today are awesome but I don't see it as the same kind of "art") but those video game looking graphics are commonplace now and not memorable so a rendered monster on a page is just kind of boring. Somehow Minecraft has captured the imagination of millions and that looks like crap to me from a video game/graphics perspective but I believe a big part of its charm is that basic look. and there are plenty of other examples in the computer/video gaming world that "most modern graphics" isn't the only thing that sells.
NET: more danforth/carver/etc art in the "older" style (I am sure they can do much more fancy stuff now but create more of that minimalist sketching style, too!). do some focus studies with younger people and I think the results would surprise the modern marketer of rpgs.
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Post by Aramis of Erak on Mar 26, 2022 14:51:30 GMT -5
The hobby has always been expensive: in the early '80s it was impossible to afford pretty much anything due to the strictures the Energy Crisis and the Recession placed on most households. They were hard times. Plus those "weird" dice were also as hard to find as rocking-horse poo. Disagree. Several games kept very reasonable supplement prices and core prices. Classic Traveller was available for $15. Wizard, Melee, and ITL combined ran $18. Wizard and Melee were $4 each. FGU's monstrous Space Opera was only $20. Sure minimum was about $3/hour ... Which put the average RPG (then about $15 to $20) at 5-7 hours takehome. D&D wasn't average, it was 3 hardcovers, IIRC, $15, $15, and $20 (PHB, MM, DMG), so $50, or about 17 hours.... Current is $7.25 federal, and the typical RPG core rules is running $40 to $150... that $150 being 3×$49.95... for 6-12 hours takehome. In looking at the hobby through the lens of hours work needed for corebooks, it's about 50% more expensive. D&D has come down in hours of pay. Most others have gone up. Some, like Traveller, the core rules of the current edition were $15 then, and $50 now.5 hours then, 7 now, have also changed formats... CT was boxed 3 digest booklets of 64pp (96 full size letter sheets), and 242 pages in a hardcover... but, in a great irony, actually covers less ground.... The move to actually providing settings is what makes the value for time better... for those who want settings. I didn't have cash when the Deluxe T&T hardcover was kickstarted... but the DT&T PDF is, for me, a value added version, even if I do "undo some changes"....
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Post by mahrundl on Mar 26, 2022 18:39:54 GMT -5
Aramis, I assume that you were in the US during the time period that dungeondevil mentions?
Because my experience is that it was pretty expensive locally (Australia) back then. You could probably double those prices for things that could be found in the small number of local game shops, and most products (including polyhedral dice for quite a long time) needed to be ordered from the US or UK, in which case you'd end up paying roughly the same as the local price but with shipping added on top of that. (Not to mention that most shipping was surface mail, so there was several months delay in receiving it.) It made it a lot harder to justify spending the money on that rather than more immediate needs.
So I think that the perception of expensive or not varied drastically depending on where you lived, at the very least.
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dungeondevil
3rd Level Troll
Give me grain and I'll give you guns!
Posts: 174
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Post by dungeondevil on Mar 26, 2022 22:06:05 GMT -5
Given the fact that my family was homeless in '79, my father was regularly unemployed because he was a Vietnam vet, (and vets took the brunt of criticism at the time), and the fact I was too young to earn any wage at all meant RPGs -- or any hobby or sport -- were far out of reach. The early '80s were a very lean time too. Eventually Pop got a great job in Aerospace, but by then I was in high school and RPGs were being thrown onto bonfires of the vanities by the Midwestern, sabre-rattling terror-mongers of the Satanic Panic. Perhaps things were rosier in Alaska, hmm?
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etaion
2nd Level Troll
Posts: 63
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Post by etaion on Mar 27, 2022 9:34:39 GMT -5
Satanic panic definitely had an impact. It didn't help that one of Geraldos locations was just down the road. That was another good thing about T&T -- we weren't using those evil dice our Sunday school teachers had our parents watching out for. Couldn't save my Iron Maiden poster or Led Zeppelin t-shirt though.
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Post by zanshin on Mar 27, 2022 11:24:57 GMT -5
Sounds like we had it easy in the UK - no satanic panic here that I was aware of in the 80s. Wasn't really labelled nerdy either as so many people tried it. Probably helped that I was at an all boys school (so less showing off in front of the girls).
There was some bullying, but not related to RPGs.
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Piper
4th Level Troll
Posts: 377
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Post by Piper on Mar 27, 2022 14:19:30 GMT -5
Sounds like we had it easy in the UK - no satanic panic here that I was aware of in the 80s. Y’all were fortunate, then. I got crosswise with them a few times. The past is best left in the past so I’ll spare you the details. Fortunately I was a Catholic and the parish priest chuckled when I relayed what had been said to me and told me I would be just fine.
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cupboardgnome
4th Level Troll
I'm a long-time roleplayer, ever since the Red Box was published ⚔️🎲 I discovered T&T in 2020
Posts: 315
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Post by cupboardgnome on Mar 27, 2022 15:04:41 GMT -5
Sounds like we had it easy in the UK - no satanic panic here that I was aware of in the 80s. Wasn't really labelled nerdy either as so many people tried it. Probably helped that I was at an all boys school (so less showing off in front of the girls). There was some bullying, but not related to RPGs. . Yes, we keep our satanic stuff much more private here 😈😀
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Post by Rat Salad on Mar 27, 2022 16:18:55 GMT -5
The satanic-panic stuff was neck-deep in my neck of the woods, being a "country boy" in Oklahoma/Texas, but I sorta relished in it, ha. I didn't know "Old Scratch" from an old itch, but if it met I wasn't like them, that was good to me. I was already thrown in that club (ie. hair length, music, etc.), so no big deal. Concerning what Viva said about old school art, man, that hits the nail right on the head for me.
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Post by lurker37 on Mar 27, 2022 18:59:59 GMT -5
Around that time, my Dad sat down with me and let me GM a few rooms of Dungeon of the Bear for him - he was playing 3 pre-generated characters. He never asked to play again, and I thought maybe I hadn't GM'd very well (I was in my early teens). My local church never did the Satanic panic thing (not that it was ever really a big thing in Oz).
It wasn't until years after he died that I realised he may have told the rest of our church that the hobby was harmless.
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